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Ide says, "This talk is titled MUSH and ideas from new RPGs" 

Ide says, "Earlier I asked how many people here played tabletop RPGs, 
  and how many had heard of sites like Story Games and the Forge" 

Molikai plays Tabletop. Heard of the orge, don't go there: Don't know 
  Story Games. Frequent - near constant - visitor to RPG.net. 

Purpurea has only played D&D, Tristat...And not often. :) 

Ide says, "From what I heard it sounds like a couple of people played 
  tabletop (TT) and had heard of those sites -- anyone else who didn't 

hear that earlier question?" 

Trinsec never played it, no people to do it here, but sounds fun 
  regardless. 

Swift says, "DND here on TT" 

Ide agrees that RPG.net is also very good. 

Dee says, "I've played CCGs, but not Tabletops." 

Trinsec has played some CCGs too. 

Ide says, "My third question is, how many people here roleplay on a 
  regular basis? Say, at least once a week? You can define roleplay 
  however you want." 

Molikai says, "CCG?'s I know TCG's.." 

Molikai raises a hand. 

Dee says, "Collectable Card Games" 

Purpurea roleplays on an irregular basis. It *averages out to* about 
  once a week..? :) 

Swift says, "I roleplay on mush at least once a week, but no longer in 
  TT" 

Dee raises a hand too. 

Trinsec hums.. "I had done regular RP on a MUSH years ago. I'm slacking 
  lately, but I've done it hardcore before. 

Molikai says, "At times, several times a week." 

Kitna raises a hand three. 

Ide says, "OK, great" 

Ide says, "what we're going to do here is present several concepts from 
  new RPGs. I'd like everyone to follow along with a couple of basic 
  assumptions." 

Trinsec sits down and listens. 

Ide says, "First is that while many people RP without any mechanics or 
  systems at all ('freeform RP' you could say), we're going to focus on 
  RP systems and mechanics. Second is that these ideas from 'new RPGs' 
  aren't necessarily 'new' ideas -- just ideas from recent games. 
  However, recently there has been a critical mass of new games with 
  similar ideas -- in other words, something is changing in the 
  landscape of RPG systems and mechanics. We're going to see how to 
  apply this to RP on mushes." 

Ide says, "If anyone has a question at any time feel free to raise a 
  hand and ask it -- we'll move to open discussion shortly as well." 

Ide says, "The premise of my talk is that most RP systems on mush take 
  one of two forms -- freeform RP, with little in the way of mechanics 
  to decide how the story unfolds, and GM-run RP, where admin and staff 
  hold the ultimate decision on how the story unfolds. Naturally, both 
  forms can occur on the same mush, but in that event GM-run RP usually 
  takes precedence. There are a wide variety of systems that fall 
  between these poles -- these systems give you the ability to decide 
  how the story will unfold with either less of a GM-presence, or no 
  single 'GM' at all. Here are three concepts to think about: scene 
  framing, narrative control, and setting ownership" 

Ide says, "How many people here have played a RPG with a GM -- or DM, or 
  Storyteller, etc.?" 

Purpurea handraise! "If you mean.. D&D?" 

Ide says, "sure" 

Balerion says, "I have, way back in the day." 

Dee says, "nope" 

Dee says, "but I've watched before" 

Swift nods 

Molikai raises a hand. "Exalted, Shadowrun, Various WoD Games, 
  Deadlands... I can g oon? :) 

Kitna has also watched, but not played. 

nails played D&D, but that was before you were born. 

Ide smiles. "So some people here are familiar with how this works. The 
  GM presents a scene to the player(s), and the players react. The GM 
  decides what the setting and the situation are -- the players have 
  little control in this setup." 

Molikai was explaining this to someone yesterday, in fact. :) 

Ide grins. 

Dee nods. 

nails says, "And the DM is usually a short balding troll-like creature 
  with white hair and a red robe." 

Purpurea says, "And a d21." 

Ide says, "If you've RPed on a mush, it's not atypical for players to 
  set up a scene between themselves without a GM of any kind" 

nails says, "That randomly appears, dolls out cryptic wisdom, then 
  disappears again." 

Ide chuckles 

Ide says, "But at the same time, it's typically mush policy that the 
  players may not seriously affect the game world (the setting) with 
  these situations without staff approval or a go-ahead." 

Trinsec nods, very familiar with that one on a Trek MUSH. 

Molikai has had some thoughts on that, but yeah. 

Ide says, "So, you can see that this issue ties together two of these 
  concepts -- scene framing and setting ownership. Narrative control is 
  a similar idea -- basically, who has the right to say how stuff 
  happens to or with your character. We deal with this a lot in mush -- 
  consent policies, full consent, in-character actions = in character 
  consequences (ICA=ICC), etcetera." 

Kitna nods. 

Ide says, "OK, I want to have time for discussion, so I'm going to move 
  to specific examples, but first I want to make a proposal. I'm 
  proposing that when MUSHes do put some kind of RPG system into their 
  game, the majority of the time they're using a GM-led system, such as 
  Storyteller, D&D, or something similar to that model" 

Molikai says, "Yeah." 

Trinsec agrees with that for the 'big events'. 

Ide says, "however, it should be obvious that MUSH RP is very different 
  from tabletop -- just consider the player:GM ratio first of all, the 
  asynchronicity of when players log on, etcetera." 

Molikai says, "Whether or not the specific /scene /is, the actua lgame 
  engine is certainly designed that way, on the games I've been on." 

Ide nods, right. 

Trinsec nods. 

Ide says, "What often ends up happening is that players spend most of 
  their time RPing among themselves in a system designed to be run by a 
  GM" 

Ide says, "The second part of my proposal is: this is a bad way to run a 
  mush. The second part, of course, is my opinion ;)" 

Trinsec thinks it depends. 

Ide says, "but let's move quickly to examples, and then discuss" 

Swift withholds judgement until hearing reasons and alternative 
  suggestions 

Ide says, "For the last thirty-odd years people have designed RPing 
  games as we know them today. But in the last five years there has been 
  an explosion of small press (i.e. designed by one or a couple of 
  designers/publishers) RPGs, mostly facilitated by the internet -- as 
  well as some RPGs produced by companies much smaller than those that 
  produce DnD, White Wolf, and so on. Some of these games have got a lot 
  of attention in the communities in which they circulate -- I'm going 
  to mention a few. First, Dogs in the Vineyard, and second, Primetime 
  Adventures. Both of these games use GMs -- but share some aspects of 
  narrative control and scene framing with the players. A third, 
  lesser-known game I'll mention is called Shock: social science 
  fiction. In this game, there is no single GM -- the roles of the GM 
  are shared among the players" 

Ide says, "In Dogs in the Vineyard (DitV), players RP characters in a 
  kind of American West that never was -- playing gun-slinging 
  watchguards of a Mormon-like religion. Players get a great deal of say 
  in deciding what happens to their characters and how." 

Purpurea raises a hand. 

Ide says, "In Primetime Adventures (PTA) players collaboratively decide 
  what scenes will actually occur, and what the goals of those scenes 
  are." 

Ide says, "go ahead, Purpurea" 

Purpurea says, "I was mostly wondering how players decide what happens 
  to their own characters, in these games? If that isn't beyond what 
  we're discussing.." 

Ide says, "no, good question" 

Ide says, "let's take PTA as an example" 

Ide says, "when you RP in PTA, the players first decide what kind of 
  scene you have, the setting, and what their character's goal is for 
  the scene. The goal is very important -- it's explicitly stated. You 
  decide who gets the goal by a simple conflict resolution system -- not 
  unlike rolling dice to hit in any other game -- that's something I 
  should highlight, actually. Many of these games use conflict 
  resolution systems (dice-rolling, card-pulling, or whatever) that are 
  very familiar, but often with some kind of new twist. But many still 
  use a basic luck/chance mechanic. However, when you 'win' a roll in a 
  conflict resolution in some of these games, you don't always get 
  complete say in what happens next -- does that answer the question, 
  Purpurea?" 

Purpurea says, "Enough, I think. :)" 

Ide says, "OK -- I'd like to wrap up the formal part of this talk in 45 
  minutes, so I'll move on to the last game I mentioned, Shock:, and 
  then go to discussion." 

Ide says, "I wanted to mention Shock: simply because it's a 'GM-less' 
  game, or as some people would say because players take on the roles of 
  the GM -- 'GM-full. At the beginning of the game, the first thing 
  players do is create the game -- the setting, and the situation their 
  characters find themselves in. Then, each player gets 'ownership' of 
  an element in the setting -- they have say in how that element is 
  presented, what it does, its history, and so on. This is very 
  interesting with respect to mushes, because it asks you to think about 
  how you could use a similar system of 'setting ownership' without the 
  say-so of staff, freeing up players for more creative and seamless RP" 

Ide says, "There's one last thing I want to mention -- How many people 
  here know what a twink, griefer, powerposer (I could go on) is? ;)" 

Dee does, sadly. -___-; My game gets those..." 

Purpurea says, "Might be better to ask who doesn't?" 

Trinsec smirks. 

Ide chuckles, "exactly. Many of these games rely on a foundation of 
  trust between players. Obviously there are different issues between TT 
  play and mush play. But I would say that this foundation is key to 
  -any- game, not just a game using some of the ideas we talked about. 
  In that respect, we can address problem players as an issue of its own 
  -- indeed, you'd have to do that on any mush" 

Ide says, "OK, it sounded like Swift had some comments to bring up, and 
  Molikai as well? Anyone else, feel free to raise a hand or let it 
  loose.To summarize these concepts, we talked about scene framing, 
  setting ownership, and narrative control. Obviously there are others, 
  like relationship mechanics, abstract resources, etc. that we can 
  discuss too." 

Dee says, "When you talk about GMing and power posing, I immediately 
  think of Irregular Webcomic. *coughs and goes back to sitting quietl 

Trinsec giggles and loves that comic. 

Ide grins 

Kitna will have to look into that one. 

Swift says, "Well, first off, I don't think that the system you use 
  should determine how much or little impact the players have on the 
  game. I have a lot of input here, so bear with me. I run a DND game 
  with traditional DM's that run scenes, handle player requests and 
  queues, things like that. However, we have also implemented a tiered 
  system of scening whereby we allow players to run PRP's (Player run 
  plots) and eventually become PM's (plot masters). The PRP system is 
  designed to allow players to submit an idea for a plot for either 
  their characters or other characters and can be anything from 
  player/character development to battle scenes. These ideas, yes, have 
  to be approved by staff so they match with themeliness of the game (no 
  rayguns in a fantasy setting, etc.) but as for the guts of the ideas, 
  we leave that to the players to decide. PM's get to run slightly more 
  themeatic affecting plots than PRP's, and when/if the PM's make DM 
  status they are full fledged DM's, they can alter the game flow, 
  implement new theme ideas, things like that. <more>" 

Ide listens. 

Swift says, "The reason for all of this is two fold: The original idea 
  of the game should be 'protected' in that you as game owners have a 
  specific reason you started your game, and an idea (no matter how 
  general) of how you want it to go. We implement a system like this so 
  that we can let the players affect their (and other's) characters, but 
  to do it responsibly, and to do it in a manner that allows the game to 
  grow and progress instead of getting mired in personal interests. I, 
  personally, see a game as a team effort...the players trust us as 
  staff to do our jobs, we as staff trust the players to play the plots 
  and help us progress the scenes...we're both there for a reason - ones 
  to direct the flow of RP, and ones to fulfill the goals of RP. That 
  said, I think you raise some interesting points and (not necessarily 
  unique) ideas for game design. I think what you're saying is in line 
  with what I've been doing on my game, but maybe in a slightly broader 
  scope." 

Ide says, "great stuff Swift, I'll let others respond to that before I 
  do :)" 

Swift nods, "That's all I had at this point (in case others are waiting 
  to see if I'll completely scroll the screen)" 

Ide grins 

Dee says, "I've been trying to do that on my game too. Players can input 
  what they want to see on my game; races, buildings, etc. But I let 
  them freeplay mostly."" 

Ide says, "do you use a specific system, Dee? A character +sheet, 
  conflict resolution mechanics, etc.?" 

Dee says, "No. Its more of a social game, but I would like to find a was 
  to do the magic system without having to code something that specific. 
  Its...like...a balancing act. My players have been very good about the 
  rules about magic so far, but you never know. ;)" 

Ide nods :) 

Dee knocks wood, lol. 

Ide says, "Swift's game is a great example of adapting a system (DnD) 
  for mush play" 

Jules ! 

Ide says, "Swift, your team basically has taken DnD and added a separate 
  system that makes sense for a mush, right?" 

Trinsec wonders what about heavy game mechanics to basically be the 'GM' 
  itself? Automatic, so to speak. And the players can do anything within 
  the game limitations. 

Swift nods, "Yeah, though I have to say, if you do something like that, 
  you /need/ to consider the system you're working with, and then 
  implement your secondary system(s) to work within that framework as 
  believeably as possible." 

Ide notes Trinsec's comment and will hold it for a moment for Swift's 
  response 

Ide says, "There's one major advantage to Swift's approach:-- 2 million 
  DnD players. But, Swift, do you disagree that DnD is not the ideal 
  system for a mush setup?" 

Dee puts a hand up. 

Swift says, "Not at all. DND is extremely broken when you get a 
  character past, say, level 9. If I had to do it over again, i probably 
  would either revamp all the rules within the framework, or would 
  design my own system outright." 

Ide says, "so, Trinsec was wondering about a 'virtual' DM -- if anyone 
  here has played H&S muds, that's an obvious example" 

Trinsec wasn't necessarily thinking H&S here, but that's an easy example 
  yeah. 

Ide also notes that these new RPGs are in many ways designed to fix some 
  of those problems in this framework, Swift 

Ide says, "What would be other examples Trinsec, real or for the 
  future?" 

Trinsec says, "Well, a fully coded econ system, combat system, etc. 
  Fully coded skills system, so one could RP but one could also purely 
  rely on the engine." 

Balerion says, "FiranMUX." 

Trinsec says, "FiranMUX has that?" 

Balerion says, "They've got all of that. I'm not sure whether they 
  eschew "GMing" at all, but they've got a massively coded system in 
  place, in any case." 

Ide nods, yes Trinsec. 

Trinsec says, "Well, I'm not eschewing GMing per say, just want to make 
  it easier to do anything without admin" 

Ide says, "they do some GMing, but rely on systems -- caveat, I've never 
  played Firan" 

Trinsec says, "Rules are enforced by the game mechanics." 

Dee says, "what about the Star Wars games? They tend to be pretty 
  mechanized." 

Balerion says, "They definitely fit then." 

Trinsec says, "Starwars games? They're very often 'freeform' as far as 
  I've seen." 

Ide says, "There's one thing to note about games like Firan -- there's a 
  difference between coded combat, and coded setting ownership, or scene 
  framing" 

Trinsec says, "Compared to startrek games, starwars games are very 
  underdeveloped. The ones I've visited anyway." 

Dee says, "I played on one where you even had to code what level of 
  force you could use when you chargen. o.o I guess its been awhile 
  since I've played on." 

Dee ahhs. 

Swift raises a hand 

Ide says, "Dee, you had a question/comment? Then Swift." 

Dee says, "Sort of a comment. I think the system may also depend on the 
  genre of the game." 

Dee says, "examples...I have two games, one online and one offline in 
  development. The online one is a social/relationships game and magic 
  is just a fanciful addition to that."" 

Ide says, "like a loose, swashbuckling system for a pirate game, or a 
  detailed, technical system for a squad-based WWII game?" 

Dee says, "yep" 

Ide says, "good point" 

Dee says, "my other game is probably going to have timeline based plots, 
  because its a game based on a television series with a set history." 

Ide says, "this is an excellent point actually -- the system frames the 
  RP. It's not just an 'add-on', in my opinion" 

Dee says, "So there'd be GMing there. :)" 

Ide says, "Dee, you should look into Primetime Adventures" 

Ide says, "go ahead, Swift" 

Dee hasn't heard of that? 

Ide says, "http://www.dog-eared-designs.com/games.html" 

Balerion raises a hand. 

Swift says, "I would like to say this though, one thing that makes it 
  harder for people who run /any/ mush, but I like to think specifically 
  RPG mushes, is lack of community support. And that works both ways - 
  when people need code, do we protect our own and tell them they have 
  to do their own? And to those of us just starting out - have you been 
  offered help from another game/admin? If so, did you turn it down out 
  of a sense of 'No, I want to do this on my own', or did you let them 
  help? This touches on a completely different lecture, but if you're 
  not out and talking to people about what works for you and listening 
  to what does and doesn't work for them, then the chances of your 
  system getting off the ground, no matter what you use, is greatly 
  reduced." 

Ide notes he'll wrap up in 15 minutes or so, but will keep logging for 
  everyone else 

Dee has two coders, but only one is still active *cough* 

Ide says, "totally, Swift" 

Ide says, "Balerion?" 

Balerion says, "The thing about something like PTA, vs.... Well, a quick 
  example is ElendorMUSH, which has a stat and skill system, but it's 
  there basically for the coded combat system which is basically an 
  "auto-DM" for violent conflict. The difference between PTA and Elendor 
  is that players don't have to learn pretty much anything about _how_ 
  skills and stats interact, what's an appropriate action in certain 
  circumstances, etc. They don't learn rules. They learn commands. A 
  system like Shock or Burning Empires or PTA, players have to learn the 
  rule set to be able to get through it. I'm not sure how much time can 
  necessarily be demanded from players to learn abstract rules on top of 
  everything else -- creating a character, maybe running through 
  character generation, etc., etc." 

Balerion says, "What I find particularly difficult to sort out for a 
  MUSH is not just the rule learning aspect, but how to handle those 
  grey areas where the rules aren't specific to a situation." 

Purpurea taps her chin... 

Ide says, "looking at a game like DnD, in my experience, most players 
  don't know the rules at all -- the GM has that responsibility. This is 
  a generalization of course -- but I agree this is an issue when you 
  start to use these ideas we're talking about. However there's a 
  flipside -- when players are allowed more responsibility in these 
  decisions, I think it increases their investment in the game -- and 
  hence they may stick around more than on a game where they have less 
  responsibility" 

Swift nods, "As an aside, we do get a lot of players who have to be told 
  what is what and when to roll what and how. People learn the system as 
  they play a /lot/" 

Trinsec thinks freedom also comes into play. 

Ide says, "how so?" 

Trinsec says, "Although, maybe not too much. WoW is a prime example of 
  no freedom and having 7 million players, mrm." 

Dee says, "lol" 

Ide chuckles 

Balerion says, "If you can code a system that automatically handles 
  everything behind the scenes -- all the number-crunching -- players 
  will be happy." 

Ide would love to make a mush with real-money transactions too ;) 

Balerion says, "Even if it can only handle a few things." 

Trinsec says, "Well, my idea was, it's niecr to be able to decide your 
  own actions than follow a path carved by thousand players before you." 

Ide nods, exactly 

Trinsec nods to Balerion. 

Purpurea has a fun idea. 

Ide says, "Balerion, since many of these games do have specific 
  mechanics, it's codeable" 

Ide nods to Purpurea? 

Swift says, "Conversely Balerion - some systems (like d20) specifically 
  are liscenced so that you can do no autocoded resolution. If you're 
  running a system you're not completely familiar with, /read the 
  liscence/." 

Purpurea hopes she can type this. Straining to stay active on a few 
  places right now... >) 

Balerion says, "Made my own to deal with that. :)" 

Balerion says, "You know the system which I think would be easiest to 
  transfer to a MU* and which would be very GM light? WUSHU 
  [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wushu_(role-playing_game)]" 

Dee says, "bordering on MUD territory here. ;)" 

Molikai was waiting for someone t omention WUSHU. ;) 

Balerion says, "Heh." 

Dee :> 

Swift nods, "Which may be the answer for some. Though not for everyone. 
  That's the hardest thing to get across to new people who want to start 
  'X'-MU* - there is no magic bullet answer. 

Purpurea says, "Idea: Make a coded system. Dice? Luck, that sort of 
  thing... But make it *very* abstract. Perhaps even provide a way to 
  re-code pieces of it in a (non-MUSHCode?) language while in-game, have 
  players define their own skill sets, their own abilities, and mix it 
  all together. Then have them come up with reasons to why it works, and 
  go from there. --The 'core' system would be able to handle the mixing 
  of the different styles. And I admit that could become outrageously 
  complicated, but... Thoughts?" 

Trinsec says, "Sounds interesting." 

Trinsec was thinking skillsystem advancement a la eve online with a 
  skills list taht can be expanded as seen fit. 

Dee says, "I must have been very lucky up until this point. My players 
  are so well behaved about magic skills, save for one or two."" 

Purpurea says, "I mean like.. D&D meets M:TG abstract. Nutters. And the 
  system balances it." 

Ide says, "one advantage of using an existing system -- or rolling your 
  own -- is that all the parts are designed to work together, to 
  reinforce one another, ideally anyway" 

Purpurea grins. 

Ide says, "not to say all RPGs have coherent systems" 

Trinsec hehes. 

Trinsec knows a few that had utterly sucky systems. 

Purpurea says, "Trying to break from my insanity, are you, Ide?! ;)" 

Ide grins 

Dee says, "you know whats funny. All my players have been basing their 
  magic sort of around d&d and -I- have been the one counter acting 
  that." 

Purpurea says, "'Magic' is a Trademark of WoTC. ;)" 

Trinsec probably wouldn't use DnD quickly. Nice idea but doesn't fit my 
  sort of thoughts. 

Ide notes the time and will be going idle -- it's game time here in 
  Seattle -- but please keep discussing, as I'll keep logging. And 
  thanks everyone for coming. I hope you'll go away with a few new 
  ideas. And note the description of the mush object here for more 
  links. 

MUSH and new RPGs 

--------------------------------[ References]-------------------------------- 

System Does Matter: 
  http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html 

GNS theory reference: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/1/ 

The Forge forums: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/ 

Story Games forums: http://www.story-games.com/forums/ 

Indie Press Revolution: http://www.indiepressrevolution.com 

RPG.net: http://www.rpg.net 

Planet Story Games blog feed: http://planet-sg.ogrecave.com/