:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: DISCLAIMER :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The following document was originally presented as an open forum for discussion of a fairly controversial topic. As a result, many of the opinions expressed in this log do not necessarily represent the opinions, values, or ideologies of M*U*S*H, The 101 Schoolhouse, or their administrations. Specifically, some opinions are in direct contradiction to the tenets on which MUSH 101 (now The 101 Schoolhouse) was founded and is currently being maintained. Thus, the staffs of M*U*S*H and the 101 Schoohouse, including the coordinator of the event (Vexon), make no claims of endorsement of any views expressed herein. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Vexon smiles and comes on stage as the prop workers exchange the podium for a stool. Vexon smiles and adjusts himself on his stool. You notice the podium is now gone, replaced by a freestanding microphone. Vexon says, "Before I begin I'd just like to thank everyone for coming, and especially those who were brave enough to present. The conference was a great success!" Vexon smiles and coughs, "[Now,] onto the discussion." Vexon says, "This is going to be a fairly simple Socratic-style discussion. I want everyone to use the code. If you don't, I won't call on you, so it will become obvious who is and isn't. In the first section I'll pose a question, and then we can go around and discuss. When new questions arise, feel free to discuss them." Vexon says, "The code is very simple. Two commands: raise hand / lower hand" Vexon says, "Both are self-explanatory.. so let's begin." Vexon pauses for a moment. Vexon says, "First question: At what point is it neccesary to @boot someone from the MU*?" Vexon opens the floor. Bolt says, "When they have decide to disregard common sense and go their own way." Audumla says, "You don't ever have @boot anyone." Trispis's arm hangs limply at his side, "I think @boot is a really sucky command to have to use, ever. And that the use of it should be dictated by the player being booted. THEY determine when to use it. And I basically evaluate it as follows: You make my life miserable. I @boot you." Vexon grins and moves to the next person. Aurora says, "Thank you, Vexon. I believe that @boot should be used at the point just before the @nuke. As in 'look, you've got my attention...do you REALLY want it?'" Vexon nods, "I happen to agree." Urza says, "Personally, i refuse to use @boot until i am at my nerve's end. Any time i @boot, it is followed by a good long NO_CONNECT session." Trispis also categorizes @boot with @newpassword and @sitelock as an entire set. You don't do one without the other two. Aurora tends to agree, but in stages. Apocalypse will just concur with T in this case, and add that he will issue a warning beforehand that you're getting offensive, and will be @boot'ed if you continue. Yoseph says, "I generaly @boot someone after they break a rule twice in a row , and @newpass for a day after 3 times." Yoseph says, "If that person continues being difficult, I sitelock." Urza says, "If i may intrude here, I always considered NO_CONNECT better than @newpass, b/c with @newpass, you have to remember another password..." Trispis says, "No, you don't." Urza says, "?" Audumla says, "I usually use @boot as a means to let someone know that they have broken some basic tenet of the social contract that they need a gentle reminder about. Some people simply forget thet the conventions of basic manners are not really suspended, so when they get bustery, I warn them and then boot them on the next pass. Used with getting their attention in mind, you can usually make them understand that being a jackass isn't going to get them what they want. The other use is for when wizards are bored and we can @boot each other to get a good laugh. I've spent hours doing this when people get silly and bored :)" Trispis says, "When you're ready to give it back (if ever), just @newpassword again and give it out to them this time." Urza says, "You dont need the old password to @newpass?" Aurora agrees with Audumla. Aurora says, "Especially the bored-admin part." Vexon chuckles Aurora grins evilly @ Vexon. Brody nods. "Gotta agree with Trispis. I don't use @boots for disciplinary purposes unless I have given that person an exhaustive series of warnings. The rare occasions when I have had to resort to this have been when the player was being abusive to others - not me, mind you - on the public channel, and refused to abide by the warnings. Basically, I tell them to go cool off, then @boot em. But it has been rare. Usually, it's enough to warn people." Audumla says, "Basically, all commands have the potential for abuse or as tools. You have to think your way through thr reasons why you use them." Trispis says, "@newpassword is a WIZARD level command specifically for locking out a player or giving them a new password if they forget." Brody grins. "Wizzes also boot each other for amusement." Vexon says, "I hacked my MUSH so you _know_ you were booted purposefully as punishment." Audumla says, "Nah, you only boot other wizards or people who ask for it." Vexon says, "With the notification of who booted you, and the use of red ansi" Vexon says, "What are your opinions of @toad/@nuke. Ignoring security issues, is it a good idea to 'make example' of players. And when is it a good time to @nuke? Before or after they commit the act of ?" Urza says, "I only use @toad if the person has done something VERY destructive to the world. otherwise i nuke, if, after their no_connect time, they dont settle down." Vexon nods Vexon calls on Audumla Audumla says, "@nuke is a regular maintenance command for the MUSHes I work at. Idlenuking, for one, saves DB space and clears rubble from the DB. Good in that vein. I have never blasted anyone in anger. I find heat of anger nukings to be inelegant when you can just SLAVE their butts and sing Barry Manilow to them. I, however, -adore- toading the truly wicked and putting them in the pond. A weakness of mine, but I note once it got around that I have a toad pond, a lot of BS stopped dead. TSC, especially, has been very much improved. You can't toad people for stupid reasons. You again, have to apply the tool in a way that is thoughtful and makes a point (aside from you being an arrogant twit with a wizbit)" Audumla has a number of Manilow emits, too ;) Nymeria hrms ... rather likes the pond idea. Urza has a "Hall Of Twinks". Urza says, "I turn the toads into statues. :)" Vexon smiles, "Go ahead T." Trispis says, "@toad (making an example) isn't necessary and can bring embarrassment on you if, later, facts emerge that put you in the wrong. @nuke is a db cleaning utility." Audumla says, "Oh, you @toad the ones who make -public- their clear buffonery." Yoseph finds that letting anger in, or trying to be sadastic really accomplishes nothing, and a skilled twink can make it look like your the problem and ruin your game. I've had it almost happen before to me. Urza says, "Toad Em All and Let God Sort Em Out. :-)" Audumla so rarely does disciplinary work you have to be trying to get that kind of affection :) Vexon points to Apox Apocalypse says, "I happen to like Audumla's idea, but I would also like to note that @toad can also be used in a non-disciplinary manner; it makes an excellent way of creating 'dead bodies' to leave around after a firefight, for instance. As for a disciplinary measure, I believe that while preemptive strikes are necessary, I prefer to engender trust in my players, which tends to make twinking less common, and give the good ones less room to manuever, as they get little cooperation from the other players. @nuke/@toad as a disciplinary measure should be reserved for those cases in which it is clearly warranted; generally, only after a siteban." Audumla thinks @nuke is a poor disciplinary tool. Mocking them is so much more effective Aurora laughs. Yoseph says, "Why waste time on morons? :)" Aurora thinks mocking is useless and droll. Urza likes mocking. "Oh wait..you mean as an administrator. N/M. :) Vexon points to Aurora Trispis says, "I do use sarcasm as a final indication that you're heading for trouble if you continue." Aurora says, "Well, If you're going to use @toad, make sure you have a /very/ good reason. A @toad is good if someone tries to vape the game, as said before. A @nuke is a good wait to just get them out of your hair. However, @nuking w/o a staff meeting, or offering the player a chance to rebutt.... that's unwise." Vexon says, "Well... we're coming to a close fairly soon. If you'd like to pose a group question, please raise your hand." Audumla says, "I tend to think in these days that a lot of people come online with the intent of playing the 'ethics' game with people who are working very hard to make sure people are having fun. Generally, people like that are really afraid of becoming a public display themselves, so knowing you'll make them one is generally enough. Frankly, if they are bad enough, I just go sysop to sysop and get their ISP to handle them." Vexon says, "Any questions at all for the group?" Yoseph has found that ISP generaly don't handle twinks, personnaly. *shutsupnow* Urza has found that most ISPs are nothing but 'holier than thou' bastards. Apocalypse grins. He's had that problem with his ISP. Aurora says, "There's no good substitute for sending large Italian fellows with names like 'Vinnie the Chin' and "Nicky the nose' to the perpetrator's house." Yoseph grins. Urza says, "You've never screamed at an ISP tech support servicer." Audumla has nailed 5 people who were bad enough to get their attention, but also runs a MU hosting. "Signature power." Vexon points to Yoseph Yoseph says, "Well, I wonder if the group has any thoughts on how mushing can become more graphical, and more 3D, to compete with role playing games like Baldurs Gate, and new stuff coming down along those lines." Urza says, "It WOULD be more graphical if more people got sense and used pueblo" Yoseph heard someone say that if the System Shock 2 engine was used to make a Star Trek RPG, STMushes would close peroid. ;) Audumla says, "Pueblo doesn't run on Macs" Aurora says, "Or *nix." Apocalypse says, "And it's also a dead client." Trispis is pushing for speech-synthesis. Trispis says, "forget heavy graphics." Trispis says, "This is text, man." Apocalypse says, "Graphics would be -nice-, but fiber-optic lines are still expensive, and 56k modems just don't cut it for online gaming." Vexon nods and agrees Yoseph says, "Maybe when everyone has a Cable modem then ;)" Vexon smiles, "Well.. thanks again for being here. I'm afraid I must depart for the evening." Vexon says, "Feel free to continue the discussion" Audumla says, "I think that the fusion of Live and PbEM is the next logical step." China says, "I have a question. When does a person's language become an issue. I have no problem with someone getting angry and spouting off ...but I do with someone just using vulgarity in general conversation." Vexon poofs Trispis says, "We've talked about when to use these built-in 'punishment' commands (@toad, @nuke, etc.). And in then end, we were talking about 'how many times I've had to use' blah blah... After spending the last 2.5 years as head custodian and dishwasher for MUSH 101 (now the 101 Schoolhouse), I must pose this question... When/how often do you reach out to a twink and try to help them see what they're missing?" Aurora thinks someone touched on this before.. Trispis says, "It's rhetorical." Trispis has to go to bed, folks. Apocalypse says, "I generally make a point of trying to talk to people, first. Many 'twinks' are actually newbies, who really don't know any better." Audumla says, "All the time. Some of them are just not reachable. When they prove it, you weigh the options, check them against the number of aspirin you've taken for the headache, and make your decisions accordingly." Apocalypse nods. Some people are incapable of listening to reason. Trispis has had twinks 'prove it' repeatedly... every day for weeks. But I never stop trying to reach them. A few of my 101 staff members were pretty far out there, in fact. // Apox is right about the twink/newbie thing. Trispis heads for bed. Urza says, "Bye all." Apocalypse grins at Aurora. Audumla says, "I think crusades against commands to combat problems of simple self control are off the mark." Audumla says, "Know the cammands, what they can do, and use them where you need them."