Log edited with Logedit 2.7.0pl on Sat Oct 25 19:07:25 CDT 2003 Word-wrapping at 76 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Debian Hall(#2548RaJ) / /^\/^\/^\ \ |"""""""""""""""""""""""""|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|"""""""""""""""""""""""""| | LECTURER |~~)~~~~~~~~~(~~| TOPIC | | |~~) (~~| | | richard |~~) ___ (~~| Design on the Hotseat | | | |~~) Y (~~| | | | |_________________________|\___ | ___/|_________________________| | |/ (_ (_ (_ (* (_ \|==\_____/==|/ _) *) _) _) _) \| \ (_ (_ (_ (_ (* \|___|/ *) _) _) _) *) / (_ (_ (* (* (_ *) *) *) _) _) (* (* (_ (_ A _) _) _) *) (_ (_ (_ / \ _) _) _) (_ (* / \ _) *) (_ / \ _) / \ do: -help lecture Present: Nymeria, Balerion, Zebranky, Cheetah, China, Viila, Gallahad, Tyr, ReynardFox, Tammy, Elvira, Trispis, Pozzo, Cloud, Colputt, Ellis, Boris Zebranky takes a seat in the Right Back Row. Announcement: Javelin shouts, "Ok, ITBG is starting now. All interested @Tel to #2548" Huz has arrived. Archer has arrived. Archer materializes in a *shimmering* transporter beam. Javelin says, "Good afternoon, folks, and welcome to the fifth Innovations in Text-Based Gaming miniconference. Today, it's my pleasure to present our keynote presentation, Design on the Hotseat (my title, not his), and to introduce you to Dr. Richard Bartle..." Boris claps richard waves. Javelin says, "Richard Bartle co-wrote the first mud, MUD (aka MUD1) in 1978, and there is no one who has thought more deeply and broadly about muds than he. He holds a Ph.D. in artificial intelligence and consults for major online game companies. This year, he published "Designing Virtual Worlds", a tour de force guide for mud and MMORPG designers. In this presentation, I'm going to ask him questions about some of the provocative points he raises in that book and their implications for the kind of worlds that most of us are involved in - what he might call text-based, persistent, non-resetting, level- and classless hard RPG muds with permanent death. :)" Ellis appluad. Tammy applauds. Viila applauds. Êlvïrå applauds Archer takes a seat in the Left Front Row. Cloud applauds. Cheetah claps. Archer applauds! Tyr claps. Trispis applauds. Zebranky says, "Nice terminology ;)" China applauds. richard says, "I think MUSH is probably shorter." Tammy nods to Zebranky. "Precise, but quite a mouthful." Javelin says, "We'll proceed for about 30 minutes and then take questions for 15. Audience members should check out the -help lecture2 commands" Grinna has arrived. Grinna appears silently out of the wall. richard says, "er, before we start, I'd just like to apologise for looking goofy here" richard says, "I'm not familiar with MUSH syntax and my client is set to local echo" Ender has arrived. Ender steps through the brighest blue-white doorway of light you have ever seen, which slides downard to nothingness behind him. richard says, "so I'm going to come over all disjointed" Trispis shudders. richard says, "or at least that's my story..." Redith goes home. Redith has left. Trispis chuckles. richard looks over to Javelin. Archer grins. Javelin says, "Let's start with an easy one. As your @desc here shows, you don't believe in freeform descriptions, even in text-based worlds. We had a nice fight about that among the players here last month. Why not?" Boris clapslook richard Ender takes a seat in the Right Back Row. Territan emerges from the Linux Lobby. Territan has arrived. richard says, "well, the trouble with free-form descriptions is that they say where you want to go" richard says, "they describe you how you want to be" richard says, "unfortunately, rarely do people end up being how they plan to be" richard says, "this means they are not often very accurate. people don't change them very often either" Javelin says, "So the audience can see it, by the way, here's how richard looks: You see a person who doesn't believe in descriptions." Archer chuckles. Tammy grins. Cloud grins. China nods. Boris scratches his chin. Javelin says, "But I know that you believe in players being able to look at each other - so what kind of physical description system do you prefer?" richard says, "it's not exactly in character, but hey, I'm not roile-playing here" Javelin says, "Or so you say. :)" Trispis grins. richard says, "I don't prefer any physical descriptions except those that can be generated from actions the character has undertaken" China ponders that remark. richard says, "that said, descriptions are a lot better than tangible setting-your-future-on-rails stuff like character classes" Javelin says, "Let's talk about 'how you want to be'. In Designing Virtual Worlds (DVW), you devote several chapters to players, and present several interesting theories. The most provocative, I think, is that people play muds to be more themselves - to integrate their identity. This goes counter to several theories that suggest that one's virtual life is about wish-fulfillment. What led you to your position?" richard says, "I don't believe that what I've said does run counter to that notion" richard says, "(jeez, I hope my backspaces are working, if not I'm about to be kicked outa here)" richard says, "the thing is, what drives wish fulfilment? What is it about a wish that you want to fulfil it?" richard says, "if you look at the roots of why people play in virtual worlds, you eventually come down to a core of activities" Luke has arrived. richard says, "these activities can be connected in ways that lead from one to the other" richard says, "the resulting progression looks a LOT like the standard model for identity seeking, ie. the Hero's Journey" richard says, "so that's the basic reasoning behind it." Javelin says, "Well, we can't stop there. Can you briefly review your player typology and explain the "main progression" of player types? I'm particularly interested in how it would apply in a text-based hard RPG MUSH or a social MUSH, but you can get on to that later." richard says, "OK, but this would be a lot easier if I could draw a picture" richard says, "(which I can't even in Reality, such is my artistic inability)" Tammy says, "Oh, he can draw a picture -- we just can't see it, that's all." Archer grins. Territan says, "This looks like a job for ...PowerPoint!" Territan gets pelted with rotten tomatoes. richard says, "the beginnings of the model is my Hearts Clubs Diamonds Spades system" Viila shushes the audience. richard says, "this classifies players into 4 types: achievers, explorers, socialisers, killers" richard says, "now although this is a basically sound system, with some useful dynamics for the player types" richard says, "it has a couple of flaws" richard says, "one flaw is that some of the classes seem to have distinct sub-classes" richard says, "for example, killers are either politicians or griefers" richard says, "the other problem is that it doesn't explain how people move from one class to another over time" richard says, "right in the very early days of MUD1 - before we even had this idea of player types - there was" ka'toq has arrived. richard says, "noticed that players would follow the same kinds of activities when they started to play" richard says, "in general, the first thing they'd do would be to try to kill people" richard says, "then, after maybe 10 minutes of this, they'd start exploring instead" richard says, "exploration would last longer, before they moved on to the main part of the game, achievement" richard says, "they'd either make wiz in the end or would stop achieving after a while" richard says, "thus we have the sequence killer->explorer->achiever->socialiser" richard says, "this is the 'main sequence' for a game like MUD1" ka'toq takes a seat in the Left Front Row. richard says, "however, in some other types of virtual world, we don't see any of this" richard says, "in a primarily social world, for example, we won't see any overt achieving" richard says, "(although there will be some pecking-order style achieving)" Logger arches an eyebrow. Luke takes a seat in the Right Back Row. richard says, "similarly, in an all-out hack & slay game, socialising isn't all that popular" Trispis is Logger and arches his own eyebrow, tyvm. richard says, "yet players of these virtual worlds clearly must change as they play - we can see they do" richard says, "OK, so I modified my original 2-axis formulation of player types into a 3-axis version" Pozzo takes a seat in the Right Back Row. richard says, "the original 2 dimensions are player/world and active/interactive" richard says, "I added a third dimension of implicit/explicit" richard says, "implicit is where you do things without thinking about them, instinctively" richard says, "explicit is where you consider your actions, planning them consciously" richard says, "everyone still awake?" Ellis nods China nodnods. :) Trispis nods. Javelin nods. :) Luke snores quietly. Tammy nudges Luke richard says, "OK, well we'll soon see about that..." ka'toq taps Luke Luke wakes up with a start. "I'm awake, I'm awake." ReynardFox shifts in her seat. "Mmmm, caffeine." richard says, "now my model has 8 types, with each of the original types being split in two" Trispis thinks . o O ( if he puts them all to sleep, then they won't know how bad my presentation is ) ka'toq puts on glasses that make him look like he's still awake, and then falls asleep snoring richard says, "killers are now politicians and griefers" richard says, "achievers are planners and opportunists" richard says, "explorers are scientists or hackers" richard says, "where I use hacker in the old, guru-programmer sense" Javelin . o O (of course) Cheetah cheers to that. richard says, "and socialisers are networkers or what I call 'friends'" richard says, "OK, I coudl explain each one of these but then I'd run out of time" Mystery8 has arrived. Tammy is a political opportunistic friendly scientist? richard says, "now the thing is, if we look at this model we can find a number of other progressions" richard says, "for example, the main explorer sequence is from opportunits (just do whatever takes your attention) to" richard says, "scientist (create theories and test them experimentally)" richard says, "to planner (work using the skills you've acquired)" richard says, "eventually to hacker (no need to think, you know the game inside out)" richard says, "now we can arrange all these various progressions in order and we find something unusual" richard says, "players start off either as a griefer or opportunist" richard says, "then they progress to either networker or scientist" richard says, "then they go on to planner or politician" richard says, "ending up as either a hacker or a friend" richard says, "so, they start off finding the boundaries of what they can do" richard says, "then once they've found out what basic operations are available to them, they begin to string them together" richard says, "having learned sequences of actions, they then apply these sequences to achieve their goals" richard says, "until they've internalised them" richard says, "as an analogy, it's like a baby who starts off thrashing around their arms and legs" richard says, "then notices that if they do THIS then THIS they can grab something" Trispis says, "and put it in their mouth." richard says, "then they string together their GRAB and TODDLE actions to get the fluffy toy" richard says, "and after a while they don't need to think about it, they just walk over and get the toy like it was an indivisible action" richard says, "I realise none of you have a clue what I'm babbling on about, so I'll let Jav ask something else now" Boris smiles Gallahad gets it. ReynardFox says, "I understand." Ellis does too China chuckles, and is 'thinking'. Tammy gets the basic premise of learning to walk. Êlvïrå gets it, I think richard says, "you're too polite!" ka'toq understands Javelin chuckles. "I could go on for hours, and it's almost open question time, but I've got to ask two more, to give the folks down there some fodder for later. First: You have a section in DVW entitled "Why Story Arcs Don't Work". That'll surprise a lot of people in these parts. Why not?" Grinna understands too Trispis says, "I understand, not fully agreeing with a couple points as absolutes, but likes what he's heard so far in general." richard says, "the development tracks I just described constitute a journey - a Hero's journey" Trispis says, "er. what' I've heard." Colputt had a similar theory richard says, "as you learn, as you progress, you become yourself" richard says, "the key is, YOU are the hero of YOUR journey - of YOUR story" Tyr chimes in late, and completely understands what you're getting at. richard says, "A story arc imposes a story on you" Javelin says, "Wait - are YOU (the player) the hero, or YOU (the character)? A story arc imposes a story on the character, right?" richard says, "you're never going to become you if you're not the hero" richard says, "when you're getting close to the end of the journey, YOU are the character AND the player - they're the same. Identity." richard says, "The player journeys toward the character, the character journeys toward the player" richard says, "if the character is fixed (eg. by class, by description, by being outgrown) then it can't move" richard says, "therefore you can't merge the two - player and character - together" ka'toq looks for the cable that joins him to his real self, then attempts to sever it China nods, agreeing with that! richard says, "in a story arc, it moves attention away from your story" richard says, "stories emerge from player actions - fine - but if you can'tinfluence the story you can't be the hero" Tammy reminds ka'toq that those cables can be expensive. Boris thinks that is a key point. richard says, "there are some other reasons story arcs don't work (eg. what happens when they end?) but those aren't really the crucial ones" ka'toq is not part of his real person, we are not the same Javelin says, "Ok, last one from me, and then it's their turn. You repeatedly make it clear that once someone has crossed over into being a serious virtual world designer they can't really enjoy playing anymore. Lots of MUSH gods would like to disbelieve that - why shouldn't they?" richard says, "they can enjoy playing, but not like they used to play" richard says, "I'm not saying that virtual worlds become desolate, emotionless places" Javelin nods. richard says, "once you've reached the end of your journey" richard says, "it's just that what separates the real and the virtual is no longer important" richard says, "the mystique, the magic, goes" ReynardFox says, "Because then after being a designer, they'd be looking at the technical aspects of it? It's no longer fun, because they're--err, exactly." Mystery8 says, "ignorance is bliss." richard says, "you still like your friends, you can still have fun chatting to them" Ellis nods. Walker wakes from the dead and leaves the coffin. Walker has arrived. Walker suddenly and simply... is. Tammy says, "But you've BEEN the guy behind the curtain." richard says, "you know how the world works, you see how it functions - there's no mystery" ReynardFox says, "Exactly, Tammy." Ender says, "And try RPing with people who you may have to @sitelock one day. Or listen to their bitching and moaning about inter-player problems." richard says, "it's almost like that, but the's more to it than hiding behind the curtain Oz-style" richard says, "the designer, in a sense, IS the virtual world" richard says, "designers have their own journey to make, once they've made it as a player" Mystery8 says, "And then if they find out that you're an Admin, they start to act differently. Some of them at least." richard says, "rather than becoming one with their character, they become one with their world" ReynardFox says, "You know every aspect of it, once you've designed it, and there's no turning back to being a player and doing it for the sake of doing it. There's no point to it any more; no fulfillment." Ellis blinks. richard says, "all very psychology mumbo jumbo spiritual nonsense stuff, I'm afraid" Alric has arrived. Javelin says, "This is going to feel like "Inside the Ractor's Studio" to me, but folks, your questions are now welcome (please use the 'raise hand' command). Aside: for Bartle's original 2x2 player typology paper with pictures, see: http://www.brandeis.edu/pubs/jove/HTML/v1/bartle.html; for the full thing, get DVW." richard says, "getting DVW is good" richard smiles. Territan has the full thing, thankyaverramuch. :) Trispis says, "Given time, I could probably come up with an example for each of your various spectrum paths. But I'll just use one example for my query. In fact, I'll only use one point on it, since it seems simple enough to describe from this point. Let's say that one is, at some point (as you've proposed), an opportunist... in this 'journey'. As they progress into some of these other points (scientist, for example). Do they ever actually stop being the former opportunist? (I say not. I say the aspects you've described are more like different stages of the same thing. e.g., we do the 'infant flailing' bit every time we learn anything new, real or virtual, regardless of whether it's a 'truly distinct new thing' or a 'new aspect to a current thing'.)" richard says, "good question" richard says, "it's not so much that they stop being an opportunist as that they de-emphasise it" Odin has arrived. Territan says, "Been there, done that, time to move on." richard says, "if they suddenly see something they haven't come across before, or think of some action they haven't thought of before" richard says, "then yes, they'll do it. the opportunities to find new things diminish as they" Tammy waves to Territan. She even has the tee-shirt. richard says, "go on, though, so they generally shift to the next phase" richard says, "of course, some people will never advance beyond opportunist" Demae has arrived. richard says, "they'll just stay as an opportunist the whole time" Odin takes a seat in the Left Back Row. richard says, "also, they may want to advance but find they can't" richard says, "like if they want to become a networker (asking questions of other people to find out how things are done)" richard says, "but the other people won't talk to them" richard says, "does that answer your question?" Trispis says, "yes. thank you." richard says, "phew!" Êlvïrå says, "Hi Richard. Thanks for talking to us today. Um, I'd like to ask you more about becoming 'one' with your character. As I understand it, you're encouraging blurring the lines between the player and character somewhat? I can understand that many things on MU*s are very positive, but couldn't this be considered a little dangerous when playing on some roleplay MUSHes where more graphic violence or horror are themes... rather like an actor becoming overinvolved with his character?" richard says, "another good question!" richard says, "OK, well what we have are two kinds of role-playing" richard says, "the role-playing we usually have in RPGs allows the player and the character to move" Êlvïrå listens Tammy nods. richard says, "so you change asa result of what you find happens when you role-play your character" richard says, "but the character also moves because you role-play it differently" richard says, "now with the other form of role-playing, the player moves but the character doesn't" richard says, "this is how actors do it on stage" Êlvïrå nods, "That's what I'm talking about. Characters who's beliefs are very different from your own" richard says, "if you're playing some axe murderer, you can keep on doing tso until you understand your character more" richard says, "but the character can't suddenly stop being an axe murderer" Êlvïrå nods richard says, "now actors in this kind of role-play DO run a risk of over-identifying with their character" richard says, "their character can't become them, so they become their character" Êlvïrå raises an eyebrow richard says, "this is usually too much of a jump for people to make" richard says, "however, if you're really into acting, or the role you're playing is close to your own personality" richard says, "then yes, it could happen" Elvira takes a seat in the Right Back Row. richard says, "whether that's dangerous or not depends on the character you're role-playing" richard says, "no-one's going to complain if you were role-playing a saint and it happened" richard says, "hmm, there is a third kind of role-playing, where you role-play a player rather than a character" Territan ...??? richard says, "this would protect you from making such a jump, but it comes with its own problems ... not recommended" Ellis has seen that, Terr. Ender has too. richard says, "I don't think I've answered your question so much as agreed with its premiss!" Tammy is one of those, right now, actually. Cheetah says, "3rd type is you act like you're someone else than you actually are in real life?" Êlvïrå smiles, "That's ok, I was just interested in hearing your point of view" Tammy thought the 3rd type was where you play your RL self? richard says, "yes, that's right. I pretend to be Bob Smith, Bob Smith plays a female half-elf" Trispis logs in as Superman and pretends to be Christopher Reeve. ReynardFox says, "Or the third type, where you play somebody playing someone else?" ReynardFox says, "Er, yeah. I'm a bit lagging here, sorry." Tyr has seen people do that before. Ellis says, "Usually, it's what I call an MPW (Male-player playing a Woman)" richard says, "where neitehr Bob Smith nor the female half-elf really exist" richard says, "OK, I'll go on to the next question" Êlvïrå says, "Or more simply, saying you're female/male IRL? That's very common" Ender says, "You generate a persona that is the player, then roleplay a character through that person's eyes. Dosen't have to be cross-gendered." Boris says, "Thank you for coming. It is a real honor to have you here. The framework you propose for character/player growth is /really/ quite interesting. I suppose the better we (gods) could identify where a player was, in terms of their place and potential evolutionary path, the more we would be able to give that player what they are really looking for. Hence attracting and keeping players around longer. Is this thinking about right?" Ellis nods richard says, "that would be great, although it's a long way away" richard says, "also, people mustn't feel they're being led" Viila says, "Be subtle and have something for everything." Viila says, "Everyone." Boris nods richard says, "this has to be THEIR story. if they find out you've been pulling the strings from behind the scenes, they'll" richard says, "feel their actions have been devalued" China nodnods, having been in games like that before. Boris ahhhs, and understands. richard says, "it's like you're in a race and you win and you're really happy, then you find out your nearest rival was paid to lose" richard says, "it undoes all the sense of having done it yourself" Tammy would not like that at all. Territan says, "Yea verily, that would suck. With bells on." richard says, "I'm all for providing channels for general progression though" Viila mms. richard says, "so that you make it easy for people to progress from networker to politician or whatever" richard says, "so long as it's people, not a particular person" Boris says, "ah...that's the key then." richard says, "is that OK? I'm overrunning major big time here into someone else's talk time" Boris nods and says "perfect. thank you. Javelin says, "You can continue to take questions for another 15 minutes if you'd like - I think the other presenters will put up with it. :)" richard says, "OK, next question" Territan says, "(First, it's wonderful being able to talk to you, even this way -- I've been overbuying the New Riders Games series something fierce! :) You said that players and characters eventually become more alike in ways as part of their journey... what about those players who seem to delight in portraying characters that are totally unlike themselves or any of the other types of characters they've played before? They would seem to be in it for something other than finding their own centers. Are they just playing a different kind of game, playing the traditional game differently, or are they trying to forge new centers for themselves?" richard says, "well there are several reasons they might do this" richard says, "the main one is that yes, indeed, they're looking for something that can act as a hook for them" richard says, "they're still at the opportunist (or griefer) stage, seeing what they can do" richard says, "my guess is they stand diminishing chances of finding an identity to wear this way" richard says, "another reason people may do it is because they're not ready for the journey" Trispis nods. richard says, "they won't change, so it doesn't matter what happens to their character, they're not going to move towards it" richard says, "a third possibility is that they're just prats. Hey, not everyone's nice like us!" Javelin . o O (Or because they're through the elder game and done with the journey and just playing freely?) richard says, "that would perhaps be the case if everyone knew who they were and knew they didn't care about the character" Territan says, "Could some of them play that way because they've already completed the journey and are now going back over it to look for alternate paths?" richard says, "just livening up the world for everyone else" Javelin nods. richard says, "they're not going to find alternative paths in this world" richard says, "they'd need to find a radically different world" richard says, "if you know how to get from A to B, finding a different path from A to B doesn't get you any further" richard says, "you still end up at B" richard says, "OK" ReynardFox says, "Thank you. My question is actually a little simple, and maybe it's from not understanding fully what you're saying... but what if something happens to stop the normal progression of a given class or archetype? What if, say, a starting class began to shift and grow; but somehow became its polar opposite by the end of its course (say, socializer to killer, or vice-versa)? Or, what if something happened to completely prevent the 'normal' flow of progression, and prevented a character (or player) from doing the expected reaction? Would this alter the end result and blur the lines of those archetypes, or would it still be one of those four archetypes...? What do you think would the logical reasons for one to do this be -- still exploring, in a sense, by seeing how they can twist those archetypes around, or honestly aiming for a goal in making that actually work; or, even, coming back to it after they've completed their own journey (short of wizarding and creating worlds), and coming back to see what they can do before taking that final step, if they're somehow aware that becoming a wizard would take the mystery out of it...?" richard says, "loooooong question there, ReynardFox!" Trispis thinks . o O ( don't PvP RPGs make 'extremely removed' characters much easier to manage? killing someone who is defined as your enemy is easier than killing someone out of 'pretend malice' is it not? ) Ender sighs, and gets close to work time. ReynardFox ducks her head. "Er, sorry about that." Blue_Guest has arrived. richard says, "OK, well people CAN get blocked" richard says, "either they took the wrong path (eg. tried to advance by scoring points when really they want to advance by leading other people - planner v politician)" Tammy sneaks out for popcorn. richard says, "or they found the path blocked (eg. they need to join a guild but don't like working as part of a team)" richard says, "or - worst of all - they were seriously thrown off track by some in-world event" richard says, "for example playing as the epitome of virtue then being betrayed and killed by someone they thought was their friend" richard says, "these are trials that can stop people from completing the journey" richard says, "not everyone does succeed. I'd like to hope everyone is in with a good chance" richard says, "but sometimes things happen. even RL can get in the way" Javelin says, "And on that note, I hope you'll join me in thanking Richard Bartle for joining us today. As with his book, his ideas continued to keep me thinking." Cheetah says, "Darn RL.. Keeps sucking up my MU*ing time." richard says, "the development tracks are what's supposed to happen. they aren't what necessarily WILL happen" Javelin oopses. Aquitaine has arrived. ka'toq has disconnected. ReynardFox says, "Oh, I see. My mistake, then. Thank you for coming." richard says, "s'OK, happens to me all the time" Territan applauds. Viila applauds! Ellis claps Pozzo claps. Êlvïrå claps :) Nymeria applauds. :) Cheetah claps. Tammy comes back in, munching, and almost drops her popcorn while applauding! Grinna applauds. :) richard says, "thanks for inviting me totalk" Territan ovates! China applauds. Javelin says, "Thanks very much for agreeing." Boris claps richard says, "if only all audiences were so smart!" Territan says, "We've read lots of books!" Boris just ordered your book. Zebranky says, "42!" Trispis applauds. Viila says, "We're a MUSH. Thinking goes without saying. Atleast for most of us... ;>" Ender applauds. Tammy ooohs, and hands Zebranky some popcorn. richard says, "I'd better vacate the stage for the next speaker" Tyr will have to pick up a copy of your book. richard says, "you HAVE to be smart here to figure this interface..." Javelin says, "And that next speaker is...Trispis." Ender says, "No, we're M*U*S*H itself. Where everyone comes together or some such nonsense." Tyr says, "Yay for T!" Javelin goes down the few steps to the seating area. Javelin comes down the few steps from the stage. Javelin has left. Javelin has arrived. richard goes down the few steps to the seating area. richard comes down the few steps from the stage. richard has arrived.