2007 Innovations in Text-Based Gaming conference

-- Logging started at Sat Oct 13 12:56:54 -0700 2007 -- 

Stoko says, "Fili, type look"
No matching command.
Bancor coughs and chokes. "But I didnt light it yet!"
Trinsec says, "No matching command, heh."
Trinsec says, "Well, better to prevent!"
Stoko says, "fili, look"
Plaza Room
         
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                               do: -help lecture                              
Present:
Blue_Guest, Adam, Tanaku, Mike, Valois, Z z z, Apparatchick, Arty, Lain, Wedge, Trinsec, Vadiv, Nemetona, Zubeneschamali, Matrix, Givur, Stoko, Elvira, Caireen, Bancor, Watchmaker, Temperance, .nails, Brody, Ahikam, Emerson, Qa'toq

Zubeneschamali perches on Blue_Guest :D
Êlvïrå lowers an extractor fan over Bancor's head
Trinsec waves at the camera!
z z z snarls at the person sitting next to him.
Trinsec says, "What person?"
z z z says, "That one!"
Êlvïrå kindly takes a saw to the back legs of z z z's chair so that it
reclines
Givur whees as he sees him in the TV!
Trinsec points out she'd like a reclining chair as well!
z z z says, "Thank you! Here, have a ham sandwich."
Adam stretches back in his seat and puts his feet up on the one before him.
Vadiv says, "Okay, everyone, I'm sure you're wondering why I've called you
here today."
Vadiv says, "The fact is, I haven't."
Trinsec snickers.
Announcement: Elvira shouts, "Last call for ITBG! About to begin in the Plaza
Room at the Park Hotel. Settle down ladies and gentlemen and no flash
photography please. Show's about to begin!"
Vadiv solves that problem.
Stoko carefully walks up the narrow stairs to the stage.
Stoko has left.
<Lecturer> Stoko has arrived.
Nymeria enters from the ballroom foyer.
Nymeria has arrived.
Blue_Guest carefully extracts Zubeneschamali.
Keynote speaker: Temperance
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "Good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for coming."
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "This year's keynote speaker is Temperance from
Shangrila."
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "Temperance has been present in MU* scene since the
early 1990s, and has worked on the development of a number of very ambitious
games. From 1996 to 2000, she has staffed on Legends of Future Past, which was
widely regarded in the early-mid 1990s as one of the best and most active text
RPGs/adventure games in the genre. Since January 2003, she has staffed at
Shangrila, which is currently the MUSH with the biggest number of active
players."
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "Having been around for a long time, and having seen
successes and failures of many MUSHes, she has a lot to say about whether the
MUSH community is growing bigger or smaller, and about the factors which
affect the successfulness of a MUSH."
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "Please, give a welcome to Temperance."
<Lecturer> Stoko goes down the few steps to the seating area.
Stoko comes down the few steps from the stage.
Stoko has arrived.
Porthos claps paws together...um, somehow.
Trinsec claps.
Adam cheers for Temperance.
Êlvïrå claps politely
Mike applauds.
Stoko applauds.
Blue_Guest claps...
Bancor claps softly
Wedge claps.
Apparatchick applauds.
z z z stares.
Orange_Guest has arrived.
Zubeneschamali claps~
Givur applaudes too.
PeekABoo has arrived.
Blue_Guest takes a seat in the Right Fourth Row.
Nemetona smiles warmly and applauds with zeal. Temperance rocks.
PeekABoo takes a seat in the Left Fourth Row.
Zubeneschamali takes a seat in the Right Fourth Row.
SAVE: Chocolate-covered fried chicken
Tokeli has arrived.
Temperance carefully walks up the narrow stairs to the stage.
Temperance has left.
<Lecturer> Temperance has arrived.
Stoko applauds.
Trinsec cheers.
Êlvïrå claps again :)
.nails hoots; hollers.
Tokeli whistles!
Givur applaudes
Bancor smiles and applauds
Matrix cheers!
Arty yays!
z z z 'accidentally' kicks the back of the seat of the person in front of him.
Quartz has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Like Stoko said, I've been in and around the mush
and online text scene since the early 1990s. I've played and staffed on both
pay text games and free ones... and this isn't the first time that I've heard
that text gaming is in its death throes."
Impster has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Show of hands - how many people have heard some
variation of "Mu*ing is dying out.""
Tokeli raises both hands.
Mike raises a hand.
Trinsec raises hand.
Adam hesitantly raises one.
Wedge raises.
Stoko raises his hand.
Impster raises a hand
.nails raises everything.
PeekABoo blinks.
Givur raises hand
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "How many believe it?"
Apparatchick sees that, and raises a hand.
Adam covers his eyes with his free hand.
Apparatchick drops her hand.
Trinsec shakes her head and lowers hand.
z z z stands up and cries, "The end is near!"
Tethys raises hand
Stoko lowers his hand.
.nails drops everything.
Adam follows Apparatchick's lead.
Wedge isn't on that many games.
z z z dusts off his pants and sits back down.
Vadiv can't decide!!!
Bratto has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance laughs and shakes her head. And tosses a blanket to
nails.
Porthos raises a paw, controversially.
Bancor shakes his head. "I dont belive its dieing
Brody has heard it. Ignored it anyway.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I may be preaching to the choir here... but I'll
go on anyway. Back in 1992, when I first started playing on a radical new game
called Legends of Future Past..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "it was unusual to see a game with more than 10 or
so players connected. We were unique because we nearly always fielded 100
players, day or night..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "which was our limit, since we were limited by the
number of ports we could have open at once."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Legends is the only piece of software I know,
btw, that was killed by the Y2K bug... but we'd started to die long before
that. And the things that killed Legends, a game that brought in over $10k a
month for its creators at its height..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "are the same things that kill almost every game.
In the years since then, I've played on a lot of games, and watched a lot of
them die the same way. I've been part of the creation team for a number of
games that never got off the ground - for the exact same reasons. And for the
past nearly five years, I've staffed on a game that has the largest player
base outside of MMORPGs and MOOs...mostly because we avoid those reasons."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Audience participation question - why do you
think Shangrila is as big as it is? Just shout 'em out, guys, and don't be
afraid of insulting me. I've probably heard it."
z z z says, "Sex and violence. 'nuff said."
Apparatchick says, "A sane wizstaff."
Trinsec scratches head, "Don't know it but wasn't it sex?"
lain says, "The promise of getting laiiiiiid but I know that isn't the whole
reason."
Wedge says, "You can do anything. No having to account for what you want, you
can just setup a character however you want, without having to get approval or
have to adjust your portrayal."
Nemetona says, "And a theme that provides a framework for roleplay but isn't
stifling."
Arty says, "Only one tiny char concept limitation. You can be anything, do
just about anything ICly."
lain says, "Yeah what Wedge said too."
Nymeria says, "What are your alt rules? How many can people have, and how many
can connect at once?"
Arty says, "10 and 10"
Bancor listens and agrees with most of the responces
lain says, "Oh, it's 10? I thought it was 8."
lain goes to make more alts.
Trinsec laughs.
Nymeria would be curious to have connection stats that indicate number of
players rather than number of characters.
Tokeli thinks question time is over now?
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "That's it? Okay. Everyone is partly right.. but
there are a few points.. first, Nymeria, the people who think that Shang stats
are hugely exaggerated because more than one character played by the same
player can connect at once are way off..."
ihavenomouth has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "nails - can you pull unique connected ips on
Shang right now?"
Nymeria nods, "I don't know personally, but I think generally it makes more
sense to measure number of players, since some games do have restrictive alt
policies." :)
.nails says, "Urm. Not instantly :)"
Bratto has partially disconnected.
.nails checks
<Lecturer> Temperance nods. "Wasn't actually sure about that :). I can tell
you as a general rule that you can shrink connected stats by about 10% to
account for multiply connected alts..
Wedge says, "Sloth said a day or two ago it was around 2500, I think."
Trinsec says, "On one given moment, connected?"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "No - Sloth was talking overall playerbase - and I
think he's underestimating, personally. He's not taking into account that a
lot of our unique IPs have multiple players.. but I'm getting off track."
Wedge ahhhs.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Sex is a big draw, and there's no denying that -
but it's far from the only factor. nails can tell you how many games he's
hosted that are "adult", to use the euphemistic term.."
.nails says, "Okay. Using *very* crude method, There's about 500 people on and
about 300 uniq IPs"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "few of them have any players at all connected
most of the time."
ihavenomouth takes a seat in the Left Front Row.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Thanks, nails. So more like 20% - but we still
have 300 unique players connected at 3-6 pm on a gorgeous Saturday afternoon.
And that's typical..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The person who said "sane wizstaff"? First, thank
you :)."
Bancor was on for a little bit there
Wedge seconds that!
.nails says, "Most 'adult themed' games I have hosted have about the same
success rate as any other theme."
.nails hushes up.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Second - it's a major factor. The first and most
important factor in building a game that is successful is a dedicated and
mostly sane staff."
GAME: Sketch (admin) is joining your location.
Sketch has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Not a large staff, mind you. But a dedicated
staff who are willing to make a commitment and stick it out. They must work
well together, respect each other even if they don't necessarily like each
other, and have a good base of communication among themselves. Lust did a very
good job of setting up a framework for staff that works well together, can
cross over in responsibilities, but respects each others' territories."
collette has arrived.
Parrot has arrived.
The parrot mimics, "*whistle* " He preens his tailfeathers for a few minutes.
"" He whistles long and softly. "" He preens his tailfeathers for a few
minutes. "" A pause... " *whistle*" The bird listens some more. "" He turns
his head back to preen a little. " *whistle*" He preens his tailfeathers for a
few minutes. " Awk!" He turns his head back to preen a little. "" and then...
"" The bird listens some more. " *whistle*" He whistles long and softly. "" He
turns his head back to preen a little. "~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~" He whistles long and
softly. "" The bird listens some more. " Squawk!" The bird clicks its beak. ""
He cocks his head, listening. "" He pauses. "" He pauses. "" He preens his
tailfeathers for a few minutes. " Awk!" The bird listens some more. "" He
turns his head back to preen a little. "" The bird listens some more. " Awk!"
He whistles long and softly. " *whistle*" He turns his head back to preen a
little. ""
Trinsec ...
(OOC) collette says "Ack. sorry."
Parrot has left.
collette takes Parrot.
Tokeli says, "Bad parrot. D:"
<Lecturer> Temperance laughs. "Cute toy :)."
(OOC) collette says "Yes."
Trinsec continues listening.
Adam chuckles softly, then goes back to listening to Temperance.
(OOC) collette says "And he seems to be broke."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "A few years after Legends closed its doors, the
game's admin approached me about my interest in working with him and a few
others in building a text game that he felt could rival the numbers of the
MMORPGs."
Bancor listens
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Basic fallacy there, btw. I think a large part of
the reason we're hearing about the death of MUSH and text games in general is
right there..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "not that we're losing players to graphical games,
but that people insist on comparing text gaming to the numbers that they see
on graphical games."
Impster nods, "Finding sane people around is near impossible.. if they were
sane they wouldn't staff :p
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Depends on your definition of sane :)."
Tethys nods silently in agreement with Temperance.
Wedge has been on a number of places that, at least to him, had staff
meltdowns.
ihavenomouth seconds that.
Bancor thirds that
z z z finds that the most common cause of a MUSH disappearing.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Most games that I've seen die have died for that
reason, Wedge. But there are reasons that staff melts down, and those are the
things that I want to address."
Wedge nodnods.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The game that my old admin approached me about
spent over two years in development before dying without ever opening. They
broke every single rule of building a successful game."
Apparatchick whistles.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The very first, most important thing you need is
a cohesive vision."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "In order for a game to be successful, the core
staff has to know unequivicollay what the game they're building (and you never
stop building it) looks like."
<Lecturer> Temperance just ignores that spelling. But cringes at it
nonetheless. And continues.
Soli has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "That may happen because one person defines the
world and everyone else buys into their vision. More often, the original group
hammers out a basic theme for the game. And I do mean BASIC."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The first mistake that new game builders make is
not knowing their theme.. .the second is knowing it too well."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The theme that you create has to have room in it
for the players. That was the biggest problem my old game group had. They laid
out a time line for the game that extended from the world's creation to
hundreds of years in the future of the world... and expected that players
would take their given roles and play in them like good little puppets."
.nails has got no strings at all. :(
collette says, "So, they had a script for the storyline, and gave people parts
to fulfill?"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "A couple of people made reference to Shangrila's
open theme and open character choice. Shang's theme was purposely designed and
refined to allow people to play the stories that they'd enjoy playing..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "in general terms, collette, yes. They weren't
exactly laying out specific roles for people to play - but they had a very
firm idea of what the players' role in the game was..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "and it didn't allow for the players to change the
game's eventual outcome at all."
Wedge winces.
lain says, "Roleplay isn't really roleplay when you're just copying and
pasting from a script."
Chouli has arrived.
Wedge says, "My first MU* had almost entirely.. Scripted TP's run. Wasn't very
fun."
z z z can recall one super-popular game that died after a chance of headwiz,
the new one 'scripting' the gameflow.
.nails says, "Just a quick note to the group: There will be logs made
available later."
Nymeria says, "A roadmap isn't a script. ;)"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "When I first suggested that players be allowed to
write their own descriptions and change them at will, they nearly had an
apopleptic seizure."
ihavenomouth says, "That all depends-- many games feature OCs and FCs, and the
FCs often must react to scripted events."
.nails listens to Temp :)
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "but a roadmap where all roads lead to one
destination might as well be a script, Nymeria."
Adam has reconnected.
Bancor nods
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Wedge, some of the best fun I had was on Legends
where I ran multiple scripted tps..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "mine were popular because I had no problem
abandoning my original storyline if the players took it off in another
direction. I followed and facilitated.."
Wedge nodnods.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "In my opinion, the role of staff is to
facilitate."
Wedge says, "Well in the one I Was on, the staffers would often just run
things the same way whether there were five characters present, or thirty."
Wedge says, "The specific character would always save the day, tangents or
attempted goarounds would be nullified."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "That includes building a solid base world and
presenting information about it so that players can find inspiration for their
own characters..."
Wedge nodnods.
Arty has disconnected.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "making it elastic enough so that it accommodates
many different ideas and story arcs..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "but being firm enough about the theme that one
player's ideas don't totally destroy the fun that other people are building."
Bancor nodnods
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "On Legends, we had a player who had his own
hidden agenda. He had decided that his character was the only begotten son of
the major deity in the world..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "the rest of the staff was infuriated that he had
the gall to "take on the role of staff" and start adding to the theme."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Their solution was essentially to nuke the player
out of orbit. But here's the thing..."
collette says, "It could have been great. :)"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "he'd managed to gather a dozen players around him
who believed that he was Rorin's son. They had a wonderful time rp'ing on
their own. They formed their own informal faction and went out into the game
trying to convert people. They created their own rp challenges for people.."
<Lecturer> Temperance nods to collette.
SAVE: Chocolate Sushi.
collette says, "That's so cool."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Emanon's TP collected people. He made room for
them in his story. Players loved it."
Wedge says, "Thta sounds great."
Matrix says, "Indeed."
Tokeli says, "Very."
Bancor says, "now a flexable staff could of used that"
Tethys nods.
Impster says, "it's one of those if you build it and let them take part.. they
will come :p"
Trinsec says, "Why wouldn't a player be able to add to the theme... enrichen
it."
Nymeria says, "Well, depends on whether you're an original theme or not. :)"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "In the end, I convinced the staff that it didn't
matter if we ordained Emanon the son of Rorin. Practically, realistically, in
the game canon, Emanon was insane..."
z z z says, "I've noticed a lot of players are followers, though, with those
'creators', the 'go getters', being a rare breed."
collette says, "Or even, staff-arb that the char is in fact, crazy, but let
him continue."
ihavenomouth says, "If they didn't want to add that to the theme, I understand
it, but no reason why they couldn't let him go on /thinking/ he's the son of
Rorin."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Exactly collette."
Trinsec says, "Yeah, they could let them go on thinking indeed. It didn't have
to be /true/."
Bancor chuckles and nods
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "We do the same thing on Shang. The only
characters that we'll restrict are those whose character concepts change
backstory or limit other players."
collette says, "I imagine that has to be tough, considering the wide range of
power types that are possible there."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "That "one little char restriction" is a myth,
btw. There are some other character concepts that are not kosher. For
instance, a player can't decide to play the founder of Shangrila. They can't
play a character who holds a major position of power in the city unless they
earn it.."
Impster says, "One of the main problems I see with gaming. And not just mu*.
Is I've encountered to many people who think of it like a D&D Module. read the
intro text and turn to page 5. If I wanted to spend hours trying to figure
outta the command parser I'd still play zork :p. Course with my groups the one
or two times we tried to use a module I don't think we ever made it outta the
bar.""
ihavenomouth says, "Wouldn't claiming that you're the sole son of the game's
god change backstory? (Just Devil's Advocate)."
lain says, "Claiming to be wouldn't."
.nails says, "Less distractions. More Temp!"
lain says, "It's just a claim :)"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "no. exactly.."
Êlvïrå says, "But would the player agree to stick to it only being a claim?"
Bancor chuckles at Impster
Soli's arm is getting tired.
collette says, "Yes. More Temperence. :) Sorry."
.nails says, "You all had your chance to sign up for giving a talk."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The player who can't fit their concepts to the
game doesn't play it, that's all :). In our case, Emanon loved it."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Sorry.. Soli? You had a question?"
<Lecturer> Temperance admits to being very informal and used to fielding
questions that are just thrown out there.
Soli says, "yes, I was wondering where you pull the line. I'm sure some
players have marvelous ideas, but if one idea would for instance cause the
destruction of a massive and nice palace you built and coded for the game,
what to do then?"
PeekABoo says, "That kind of change usually requires reapproval"
Soli says, "letting them go their way might cause other players to go yikes
and stopping them... well, you get my drift."
PeekABoo says, "err pre-approval"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "That's where staff has to use their judgment and
nix the idea. That's what I meant by "flexible enough to allow for change,
firm enough to keep the game alive"."
Soli says, "not all players ask before they do..."
Adam has partially disconnected.
Walker has arrived.
PeekABoo says, "Good luck destroy code as a player bit then?"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "For the record, gang, since I was just asked to
clarify.. I'm likely to not notice hands raised. I'll try to keep on track
because I know thre's a timeline here, but if you have questions, just speak
up."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Let me recap though..."
.nails says, "People post announcements saying they've invented the internet
in Shangrila, or they've discovered a new moon. We beat them down, and it goes
away."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Dedicated, sane staff."
Orange_Guest has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Cohesive vision of the theme."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Flexibility to allow players to play out their
own story arcs (more on that in a minute)."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "A few firm lines that are not to be crossed, with
all staff knowing where those lines are drawn."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Everyone with me so far?"
PeekABoo nods.
Zubeneschamali nods!
Soli nods
Impster says, "lost ya at sane staff :p"
collette smacks.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Okay. A word about player story arcs - which
we've been talking about to some extent already."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Emanon's backstory was his own personal story
arc. He actually never intended for it to come to the attention of game staff
- and by that, I don't mean he was trying to sneak it by us."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "He had created a character with a personal
conflict - trying to resolve his belief that he was the son of Rorin with his
own sanity. He was perfectly content to play it out without staff assistance
at all..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I've staffed on a number of large and small
games, and frankly - that fits more players than it doesn't fit."
.nails raises a hand in hand raising way.
Soli coughs.
<Lecturer> Temperance points to nails. "Speak!"
.nails says, "A good buddy of mine who runs a game used to be involved with
RPI (role play intensive) MUDs. They once had a guy come on and pitch an idea
to staff:"
.nails says, "He wanted to bring about the end of the world."
<Lecturer> Temperance coughs.
.nails says, "He said that he realized this might create some extra work for
staff, having to destroy everything and write new descs and all, but he felt
strongly that the RP opportunities it created would more than make up for it."
Soli thinks that qualifies as ruining others' RP
.nails says, "These people will always be out there. It is just a fact of
life."
Sketch has disconnected.
Impster says, "You scared Sketch away :p"
<Lecturer> Temperance grins. "We actually get quite a few proposals like that.
The biggest one being the person who wants to end slavery in Shangrila..."
Soli guesses they can try.
Matrix says, "Ooh, where do I sign up? ;)"
Apparatchick imagines that one comes up at least once a week.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "And this is where the elastic/firm thing comes
in. Our general response is - what Soli said..."
.nails says, "What Temp is talking about is finding the balance and the sweet
spot between openness and giving players freedom to play with the world, and
keeping people locked down. There will always be crazies on either side."
.nails done
Luke has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "We say "Slavery is a fact of life that will not
go away. If you want to play out raising a rebellion and will be content with
a few small victories, and are really all about the RP, let's talk. If you
want it all to happen according to your script, and you win all the marbles,
ain't going to happen.""
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "in general terms, exactly what nails said. Better
than I could have."
.nails says, "A quick reference back to an earlier point Temp made: I have
seen games go down in flames because staff wasn't sane enough to recognize a
crazy before the damage was done. Sane staff keeps the crazies away."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The other part of that is that most people DON'T
want to destroy the world. They want to find their place in it. A lot of them
just want to build their family, create a business, have a life - and if you
give them the ability to effect those changes, they're not only happy, they'll
bring their friends from other places.""
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The fact is that there is really far less sex and
violence on Shang than most people imagine."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "There is far MORE dramatic, interpersonal rp than
you'll find in most places."
Emerson says, "*cough*foreplay*cough*"
Soli laughs
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "No, Emerson, not foreplay. Not for a lot of
people."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "There are a lot of people on Shang who don't
engage in TS at all, but have very active rp lives."
qa'toq leaves for the ballroom foyer.
qa'toq has left.
ihavenomouth actually has created characters on Shang which were created for
non-sexual reasons, and were never involved with sexual RP. It goes on more
often than you think.
collette nods. It's true.
Nymeria says, "I guess what I would be curious about is whether you think that
what it takes for a game to be really popular is pretty much an original theme
and an 'almost anything goes' policy, or how much can one deviate?"
Wedge has a few chars that very rarely have sex, and most often do storyline
or at least personal storyline RP.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I think, Nymaria, that the key isn't "anything
goes", but openings for new people to get involved."
Sink has arrived.
Bancor is flexable with his chars,,
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "A couple of years ago, I went looking of
somewhere to spend non-staff hours off-Shang, and hit a number of mushes of
all varieties..."
PeekABoo says, "It's also very good for Staff to have a solid line that the
enforce that takes it outside their boundaries, not to mention an idea for
growth to begin with and how it can be done."
Soli says, "I think though that anything goes, or the hint to it does a
lot..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "the one that caught me was a WoD mush - and there
aren't many types of games that have more rules about what your character can
and can't do. And here's what caught me..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The first time I logged on, I walked down Main
Street, wandered into the cemetery and was accosted by a ghost who not only
rp'd with me the first time I logged onto the game..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "but offered me hooks - you should speak with this
person who owns the bookshop. If you run into this blond girl with this habit,
be careful of her. ..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "so that when I came back, I had an "in" on the
game. I wasn't a "new player", I was a new person in town."
Soli says, "uh... what's WoD?"
ihavenomouth says, "World of Darkness."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Sorry - World of Darkness."
collette says, "Cool. :)"
Luke says, "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Darkness"
ihavenomouth says, "White Wolf games, such as Vampire, Mage, Werewolf,
Changeling, Wraith, etc."
Watchmaker has disconnected.
Tokeli has always wanted to play on a WoD MU*, but was always too much effort.
Soli nods and goes watch the wiki
Watchmaker has connected.
Impster used to play on them.. but found most to hard to hook into.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "If you don't have players who are that actively
involved, it's up to staff to start by example. Get to people ICly and hook
them into the game."
PeekABoo found Paris to be extremely easy to hook into.
ihavenomouth cut her teeth on WoD games. Good ones, that sadly no longer
exist. Le sigh.
Disraeli has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I'm a firm believer that IC interactions will
hook people far far faster than all the ooc tools to help them find rp you
could ever provide."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "if it was up to me, I'd cut out half the "search"
methods for finding people to play with that Shang uses - of course, most
people are very happy that it's not up to me in that case :)."
Tokeli says, "Admin always love to remove stuff that players like."
.nails notes the irony that Temp has written most of those tools.
<Lecturer> Temperance snerks at nails.
Watchmaker has disconnected.
Watchmaker has connected.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "And that's because I live by my belief that you
become successful by evaluating what your players want, and offering those
things that will facilitate play the best."
Quartz says, "That is actually how I do it, on Shangrila. Safe very rare
instances when I feel I want something specific. Otherwise I just go out into
a public location and watch. If something hooks me in--I throw a few poses of
my own to see if the other person will pick up on them and just take whatever
comes from there."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "My own preference is for a game with no ooc
mechanisms for players to find each other at all."
Impster wonders what the addy is for this shangrila he hears about.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Total immersion. Like Quartz said."
PeekABoo grins, "Don't get me started on OOC means of hooking rp."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The very last part of building a successful game
is the one that's the hardest.."
Bancor says, "Finding coders?"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "A critical mass of players. It's one of those
catch-22 things..."
collette sighs. "Yeah."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "bah, coders are a dime a dozen, with no offense
meant to all the coders here...."
Walker sniffles. ;).
Tokeli says, "A dime? That expensive?"
Disraeli snickers.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "you have to have players online to keep new
players online long enough to get involved in the stories going on around
them."
Bancor says, "Then I must be looking in the wrong places"
Zubeneschamali remembers feeling like going out into the IC world and
wandering until I ran into someone and RPing with them, but not enough people
idled IC side. This was partially due to a 'times' system, and if you idled
for 20 minutes on the IC grid, you'd be @telled back to the OOC grid.
Impster gives walkers two dimes.
Soli needs that dime
Emerson . o O ( Good, Stable, Unidle. Pick any two for your Coder.)
Walker bites the dimes, finds they're cardboard. Yay, food.
Wedge says, "The last couple of games I was on, during the big TP's, it seemed
like I was one of two or three characters that wasn't a staff alt."
ihavenomouth hates total immersion systems if they don't come with an updating
map. I could get lost in a one-room house.
Orange_Guest says, "Room for player 'investment' in the game is important to
building/retaining a player base, as I see it. Ways to make their character an
integral part of the world/setting if they choose to. I played on a game years
ago that shall remain nameless to protect the control freak who was headwiz
there. It had a really nice setting, a mid-size grid decently populated with
places -- and felt oppressive and sterile. There was NO building or coding by
players allowed. And players were not allowed to have homes, or even apply to
be the IC owner/manager/whatever of one of the businesses already on-grid --
They were all exclusively run by faceless NPCs."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "On a small game, that's sometimes the only way
that you can get a critical mass of players, Wedge."
collette says, "Sometimes staff plays TPs themselves because they want to. And
sometimes they play them themselves because they have to."
.nails says, "That is a serious pet peeve of mine. People logging into a game,
going "Hmm, not enough players" and leaving. Hi! You're part of the problem!
Hypocrite!"
.nails yells a lot.
Disraeli is with nails on that one.
Impster logs into Shangrila and goes, "Argh it's big!" and logs off.
Soli lol
Disraeli does my bit to persist when a game is small, though!
Wedge nodnods.
Apparatchick walks into a room. Complains it's quiet after idling for twenty
seconds. Leaves.
.nails says, "People do that a lot."
PeekABoo logs on and finds lots, but either ooc or housed away ic.
.nails says, "I'm find with that. We don't need them. ;)"
Mike says, "True, nails, but I also hate logging onto a game, spending 4 hours
reading stuff and developing a character, and waiting 3 weeks for anything to
happen."
<Lecturer> Temperance nods to nails. "But it's also something that you can
build your game to accommodate.."
.nails says, "Don't wait. Go tell your friends, bring them over. If you're
there because you think the game has promise, talk to staff and ask how you
can help spread the word."
.nails shuts up again.
Luke goes home.
Luke has left.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Build things for people to amuse themselves with
while they wait for others. Code in gambling machines, coded puzzles, things
that will engage people if they're there alone.."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "And try to keep a few staff alts online and
visible who can engage people when things are slow."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "you don't have to do that forever - it's a
beginning maneuver."
collette says, "It's still hard work."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Anything worth doing is hard work. Don't get me
started on instant gratification :)."
collette revises, "Hard work, with no guarantee of success". :)
Disraeli says, "c'el a vie!"
Soli says, "C'est la vie..."
Javelin has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "so to sum up... in order to have a game that runs
successfully, you need - a small, dedicated staff (you can have a big staff,
but honestly, smaller staffs work better)..."
Purple_Guest has arrived.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "a strong, cohesive theme that can serve as a base
for rp..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "the ability to be flexible and let players find
their own place in your world..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "openings or hooks for new players to get
involved..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "and a reason for players to stick around when
they log in and find nothing happening right now."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Any questions? Comments? Pies to throw? And
where's the coffee?"
Êlvïrå has a question :)
Impster has disconnected.
Watchmaker drank it.
Javelin claps (and pours coffee when no one's looking)
Mike says, "What kind of reasons would you suggest?"
Êlvïrå says, "And a comment"
Soli says, "how to get that dedicated staff? *ducks and hides*"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Hang on, Mike.. Elvira?"
collette raises hand.
Zubeneschamali throws a doughnut to Temp. A tasty, tasty doughnut. :D
.nails checks E for pulse.
.nails says, "She's dead, Jim."
Êlvïrå says, "Mike asked his question"
Êlvïrå says, "Oh"
Êlvïrå says, "sorry, I misunderstood when you said Mike... Elvira. I thought
you meant he'd go first ;) Ok"
<Lecturer> Temperance :chuckles. "Missed communication.."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "go ahead, Elvira - you spoke up first."
.nails puts on his "I touched Elvira and lived" tshirt.
Soli sneaks behind nails.
Êlvïrå says, "Right, my question is: What is the measure of success of a MUSH?
Because I was thinking about your question at the start about whether MUSHing
is dying. And my feeling is there'll always be someone somewhere running a
MUSH and talking with someone else there, just like there are people still
playing Atari games today. So MUSHing won't 'die' in the forseeable future.
And isn't that MUSH that those two people are playing on as valid and
successful as a game with 500 people? Or a game with 10 handpicked roleplayers
with amazing literary skills as valid as a massive multiplayer game where RP
is limited to 'Bob smiles'?"
Êlvïrå kinda worked her comment into the question ;)
collette smiles.
Chouli makes some comment about how it's not about size, but what you do with
it. :)
Matrix coughs suggestively at Chouli.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Actually, I totally agree with you. I addressed
one measure of a "successful" game - having a lot of players. Or, more
accurately, building an active player base. I think that the measure of
success is whether a game meets the expectations of those who are running and
playing it."
ihavenomouth made a game that's just for her friends to hang out on. No other
purpose.
<Lecturer> Temperance nods to the mouthless one.
Êlvïrå says, "Good answer, thank you"
ihavenomouth would smile atcha, but...
.nails says, "MUSHes don't die from natural causes. In some cases, technical
disasters have taken games out, but that rarely happens these days. Most
MUSHes 'die' because the people who run them get burnt or discouraged and they
take the game down. That there is failure in the terms that Temp outlined:
Failure to meet the expectations of the staff and players resulting in
euthanasia."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Mike, you asked about what kinds of amusements
I'd suggest.. I mentioned a couple. Code is your friend. Interactive features,
things to read, games to play, puzzles to solve... er...monsters to kill."
collette agrees with Elvira's hidden comment. Comparing visual game players
and text game players is like comparing the number of people who like to curl
up to a good book to people who want to go to the movies for entertainment.
There's a vast difference in numbers. The book readers might go to movies
sometimes, but they will /always/ come back to the books, because that's how
they are. Because graphic games aren't as good as one's imagination (to them).
ihavenomouth agrees wholeheartedly with collette there.
<Lecturer> Temperance agrees with collette too, and has used the exact same
example.
SAVE: MUSHmallow keyboards
Emerson raises a hand for a derivative comment to nails'.
.nails says, "MU*s killed by MMORPGs: Total myth espoused by disenfranchised
malcontents. The end."
collette says, "Can I make another comment?"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I think the enormous size of the mmorpgs has led
to some mush admins getting size envy. Emerson? Then collette."
Zubeneschamali loves both! I personally find it easier to convey things in
text than by visual means, but visual is so... pretty... <3
Adam leaves for the ballroom foyer.
Adam has left.
Emerson says, "In my experience of wandering here and there with online games,
I've noticed that for volunteer games.. those that have less.. hmm, 'nitpicky'
rules-structures and staff tend to be longer lived, as their staff do not tend
to burn out quite as hard or fast."
WHUFFIE: Looks like you haven't given anyone whuffie! The whuffie system
becomes more powerful and useful as more people assign whuffie. +help whuffie
for information on how.
<Lecturer> Temperance nods. "Yes. You can only spend so much of your time
dealing with disciplinary stuff. It's honestly not so much that players won't
stay on a mu* that's too strict, though that happens. It really is a matter of
staff burning out because it's not FUN to staff when your whole job is looking
for rulebreakers."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "collette?"
Soli loves to smite.
Emerson says, "Or not even 'rulebreakers', but adherence and overabundance of
theme material."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I won't even tell you about the book that my old
cohorts came up with for building their themed world."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "There were 23 major gods. Nuff said about that."
.nails says, "game requires x amount of energy. staff and players have y and z
energy. if x > y + z, then fail."
collette says, "Re: Mike's thing about ooc distractions...once upon a time, I
had a little cultural staff that worked for me, and I tried to make it policy
that staff should try to say hello on the com, and engage in some chatter,
before the player had a chance to finish catching up on bbs. If there's not RP
around at the moment, people can still make friendships and share stuff, and
enjoy each other's company oocly, till the right RP time comes."
<Lecturer> Temperance loves the way that nails sums things up so succinctly.
.nails should be saving this up for his talk. Then maybe he'd have some
material!
Nymeria says, "The thing that I find troubling about that is that to fullfil
this apparent need of players to have a lot of freedom and not too much theme
to adhere to, is that games based on pre-existing themes seem almost hopeless
cases. Which I suppose may be true, though I'd like to think there's some way
to make thos work too. ;)"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Not really Nymeria, unless you're talking about
games that have their entire story arc planned out in advance..."
Soli says, "I counter that, Nymeria."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I'm not saying that you have to allow people to
play whatever character they want. In fact, games based on pre-existing themes
have the advantage of already having a cohesive theme that people can hook
their characters into."
PeekABoo says, "Most games with pre-existing themes, have a start point and go
forth from there, unless you're talking broad themes like WoD, in that case
it's irrelevant."
Soli says, "I'm 'working' on a MUSH which theme is pretty fixed and which
future is determined. But it still leaves a lot of room for plots and changes
as I set it in just a small region of said plot."
Nymeria says, "Sure, you can allow room for plots, but you can't allow people
to add very much. :)"
Mike says, "While having the ability to change the world in some way is
important, people often play on games based on well known books/movies/etc
because they want to play in a world they know. If you let people change the
world to a point where it's not recognisable as the setting you started with,
people lose that reason for being there."
Nymeria nods to Mike, that's more what I am thinking about.
collette says, "Well, what I've come to realize is that theme that is too
accomodating becomes...generic. There's a lot of MUSHes out there with the
same ideas. orc species, elf species, talking animal species...wooded region,
city region, mountain region...and the more they try to look different, the
more they look the same. So when I see a game and its like "What? I can't make
an elf?" it nearly seems MORE interesting to me. Down side to a non-original
theme mush is if you don't know the theme well, you are never sure what you
can do."
Soli has picked Command & Conquer, if you don't like elves, ;)
collette doesn't mind elves, it was just an example. :)
.nails rubs his eyes.
Bancor says, "Had that same problem on WoT games collette"
Soli pouts.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "That's where you set the balance. On Shang, that
set point is broader because of the theme we've adopted. On a game that's set
in a pre-existing world, the flexibility comes in people affecting their own
lives and the lives of their friends."
collette says, "So the cohesive sane staff..."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "is easier said than done?"
.nails says, "The level of separation and/or cohesion between thematic window
dressing and game mechanics is always up to you."
collette takes any pointers she can get. :)
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "This has been great, gang - but there are other
presentations that I'm really looking forward to hearing. I'll end with the
vision of the theme I'd LOVE to build, if anyone wants to hear it?"
collette says, "Yes!"
Trinsec says, "3D MUSH?"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I'm not that innovative, Trinsec :)"
Trinsec says, "Dang. ;)"
Watchmaker says, "Go for."
.nails hates 3D MUSH. "wearing the glasses makes me feel sick after the first
six hours. :("
Soli has fun trying to catch those letters though
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Croatoan, essentially..."
Quartz is very, very curious to hear it.
Walker has to take off, will read the log when he gets back.
Walker goes home.
Walker has left.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "a group of settlers is dropped off in an
unexplored land with all the supplies they need to survive a winter. The ship
leaves... and never returns."
Tokeli is immediately reminded of Pern, for some reason.
lain says, "I read a book like that in sixth grade."
Emerson says, "A perfect setting..."
Soli thinks it is from Strata.
Emerson says, "...for a series of axe murders!"
.nails says, "lain means she flipped through the pictures in a book like that
in sixth grade."
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "The game would consist of a wilderness grid.
There would be mechanics for realistic building. You can chop trees, build a
cabin. Get your fellow settlers to agree to build onto your cabin, or find a
way to sell them supplies.."
collette says, "How do you account for new players joining the MUSH after the
initial start then?"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "new players would enter via the same
mechanism..."
Tokeli says, "Random people out in the wilderness?"
Disraeli says, "sounds a bit like a game i know in development. Which is a
colony, fantasy style."
PeekABoo says, "Well that would mean the ship returns"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Because the settlers didn't land where they
thought.. they ended up in something very different. No outgoing contact...but
people wandering in."
Disraeli says, "Starting out with a blank slate and you gotta build stuff."
Javelin has an indefinitely-stalled game much like that. :)
<Lecturer> Temperance nods to Disraeli.
PeekABoo add thoughts of Lost into the theme lol
.nails has an indefinitely-stalled game that is ten times cooler than that.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "Javelin, I think it's every serious admin's dream
game :)."
.nails dreams big.
Emerson says, "nails set his colony up in Greenland."
collette has an indefinitely stalled game that...wait...I have several. Let me
find them...
Javelin wonders if all those serious admin should get together and do it.
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "I proposed that to my gamedev group and they
freaked at the thought of players building the whole world - but THAT is
exactly what I want."
.nails says, "(mine has space ships, dinosaurs and terra-cotta mechs)"
.nails says, "But perhaps I have... said too much."
collette says, "Oh, players can build. Players are great builders."
Bancor says, "sounds interesting so far"
<Lecturer> Temperance says, "And on that note, folks... I leave you to imagine
terracotta mechs fighting dinosaurs in the sky.. and hand the floor over to
Stoko. Thank you all!!"
lain says, "So your grid would essentially just be 'Here is some grass. There
is a tree. Oh look, a flower.' and players build everything else?"
<Lecturer> Temperance nods to lain as she flees the stage.
Soli knows a mush with softcode building aids, "it works great. So great that
even some admin forgot about @dig, lol"
<Lecturer> Temperance goes down the few steps to the seating area.
Temperance comes down the few steps from the stage.
Temperance has arrived.
Stoko carefully walks up the narrow stairs to the stage.
Stoko has left.
<Lecturer> Stoko has arrived.
.nails applauds!
Brody applauds.
Javelin claps.
collette clap clap clap!
Tokeli throws rotten tomatoes, and a baby, at Stoko!
Êlvïrå claps
Zubeneschamali hoorays!
<Lecturer> Stoko dodges some rotten tomatoes, and says, "Thanks to Temperance
for coming and holding her interesting presentation. I'm sure we all enjoyed
it."
Javelin: Podcast for your MUSH
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "The next presentation, 'Podcasting for your MUSH',
will be held by Javelin. Javelin is former PennMUSH maintainer, and current
host of the Tinytalk podcast. In his presentation, he'll talk about why people
might want to start podcasts for their MUSHes, and how they can get started
inexpensively."
<Lecturer> Stoko goes down the few steps to the seating area.
Stoko comes down the few steps from the stage.
Stoko has arrived.
Javelin carefully walks up the narrow stairs to the stage.
Javelin has left.
<Lecturer> Javelin has arrived.
Stoko applauds.
Brody cheers!
Elvira carefully walks up the narrow stairs to the stage.
Elvira has left.
<Lecturer> Elvira has arrived.
<Lecturer> Elvira goes down the few steps to the seating area.
Elvira comes down the few steps from the stage.
<Lecturer> Elvira has left.
Elvira has arrived.
Tokeli throws money and hugs at Javelin!
Êlvïrå whoops, hit the up button by accident :)
Temperance applauds and has been looking forward to this one.
Êlvïrå was overexcited
Êlvïrå woots loudly for Javelin
Jaron has arrived.
Bancor laughs
Soli sneaks out to bed. "Will read the logs tomorrows, :)"
Soli leaves for the ballroom foyer.
Soli has left.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Hi, folks. Thanks for coming and thanks to the
organizers. Today I want to talk, as Stoko said, about why you'd want a
podcast for your MUSH, and how to start one painlessly."
Luke has arrived.
Blue_Guest stands and leaves the Right Fourth Row.
Blue_Guest leaves for the ballroom foyer.
Blue_Guest has left.
Clotho has arrived.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "First, some really basic terminology, because people
still ask this. A podcast is just a set of (typically) mp3 audio files
together with a meta file that describes (to a computer) which mp3 files are
available, and when they were made available. You listen to a podcast using
whatever mp3 player you've got -- not necessarily an ipod, computers work
fine. You either download episodes as you want them, or you "subscribe" to the
meta file using software that can automatically download new episodes as they
become available."
Wedge says, "Would it be live or not?"
Stoko says, "fili, look"
Plaza Room
         
     /                            /^\/^\/^\                            \      
    |"""""""""""""""""""""""""|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|"""""""""""""""""""""""""|     
    | LECTURER                |~~)~~~~~~~~~(~~|                   TOPIC |     
    |                         |~~)         (~~|                         |     
    | Javelin                 |~~)   ___   (~~|     Podcasting for MUSH |     
  | |                         |~~)    Y    (~~|                         | |   
  | |_________________________|\___   |   ___/|_________________________| |   
  |/  (_   (_   (_   (*   (_   \|==\_____/==|/   *)   *)   _)   _)   _)  \|   
   \      (_   (_   (_   (_   (*   \|___|/   *)   _)   _)   _)   _)      /    
              (_   (_   (*   (*   (*     *)   *)   *)   _)   _)               
                  (*   (*   (_   (*   A   _)   _)   *)   *)                   
                      (_   (_   (_   / \   _)   _)   _)                       
                          (_   (_   /   \   _)   _)                           
                              (_   /     \   _)                               
                                  /       \                                  
                               do: -help lecture                              
Present:
Clotho, Luke, Jaron, Elvira, Stoko, Temperance, Purple_Guest, Disraeli, Sink, Orange_Guest, Chouli, Collette, Ihavenomouth, Bratto, Quartz, Tethys, Tokeli, PeekABoo, Nymeria, Tanaku, Mike, Valois, Z z z, Apparatchick, Lain, Wedge, Trinsec, Vadiv, Nemetona, Zubeneschamali, Matrix, Givur, Caireen, Bancor, Watchmaker, .nails, Brody, Ahikam, Emerson

<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Having a audio podcast for a text-based game
sometimes strikes people as a strange thing to do. As we know, text is in many
ways the lowest common denominator, and when you start doing things like sound
(or video!), you're not going to be providing it to all of you players, as
some may not have equipment to listen to it conveniently or may not, in fact,
be able to hear at all."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Generally not live, Wedge."
Wedge says, "Got it."
PeekABoo has disconnected.
.nails says, "Generally Memorex."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "But just as many MUSHes have web-based forums, some
of which develop their own community feel that's nicely complementary to the
MUSH - even when all the players don't participate - using podcasting provides
a nice way to bring, to some of your players, a little extra personality and
connection that may provide them with enjoyment and a close relationship with
the game and the other players."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "I like hearing the voices of people in the MUSH
world, and even beyond that, there are opportunities to do things with
collaborative sound -- including music, sound effects, and dramatization --
that can be a genuine enhancement of the game and community experience."
Molikai has arrived.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Ok, so on to what's involved. At the cheapest level,
podcasting requires essentially: (a) a way to record sound into a computer
(e.g., a microphone, a soundcard, and some recording software), (b) a place to
store the audio files (e.g., your web server, or one of the free places to
store audio files I'll mention later), (c) a way to make the metafile that
lets people know when there are new episodes, and (d) ideas for things to do."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "There's lots of good geeky things to say about the
recording side. Plugging a cheap microphone into a mic jack on a soundcard (or
buying a usb microphone, which is essentially its own soundcard) and running a
decent free audio recording program like Audacity requires very little effort
and money. For those who are looking to really work on the sound, the next
step up is usually a studio microphone and a mixer, which can be had for less
than $100, and provides more flexibility as well."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Naturally, you also need some kind of headphones,
not only so you can listen closely to yourself, but also so your speakers
don't feed back or echo into the mic. :)"
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Once you record the audio and save/convert it out
into the mp3 format, you need to put it on the web somewhere. If you have your
own server that can handle the bandwidth of people downloading your audio
files, you're set. Otherwise, there are several free places. I use
ourmedia.org, which actually puts the files on the archive.org (The Internet
Archive) server. There are also several inexpensive commercial podcast hosting
services, usually with a monthly fee."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "The metafile that tells other computers about your
episodes is written in XML. Very few people, however, write their by hand,
because most blog software (drupal, wordpress, etc.) has plugins or modules
that can generate it automatically from blog posts that have links to mp3
files."
Teech has arrived.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "So, with Tinytalk, for example, when I write my
little blogpost describing the episode and linking to interesting things
talked about in the episode (the so-called "show notes"), that blogpost
contains the link to the episode. Drupal automatically generates an RSS feed
(in XML) for my blog, and that can serve as the podcast metafile. In practice,
there are some podcasting-specific tweaks you might want to make to that file,
and you might want a way to figure out how many people are subscribed to the
podcast. A free service called Feedburner does a lovely job of taking any RSS
feed and adding those tweaks, and giving you a place to monitor
subscriptions."
Nemetona has disconnected.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "For a MUSH podcast, which is likely to have a
relatively narrow audience, publicity is not much of an issue -- you tell your
players about it, post on some mush sites, (and please, tell me about it so I
can talk it up on Tinytalk and link to it!). You can register with the Apple
iTunes Store or other podcast sites and have your podcast listed there. If
you've registered with mudconnector, this is usually easier. :)"
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "If you're doing something for a broader audience --
for example, you run a Dune-based MUSH and want to do a podcast on all things
Herbert -- you'll also want to produce a short "promo" ad for your podcast
that you can trade with other podcasts on related topics. Some kinds of
podcasts (e.g. board gaming podcasts) even have organized "podcast networks"
that you can join and that help with sharing promos and the like."
Matrix yawns. Will read the log tomorrow (more like today, but meh).
Matrix has disconnected.
Purple_Guest has disconnected.
Purple_Guest goes home.
Tokeli has disconnected.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "And after that, it's all about ideas, and listening
to your show, and seeing what else you'd like to do, or do better. On Tinytalk
we've highlighted electronic music collaboratively created on a MUSH, we've
produced a dramatization of a MUSH RP log (with multiple actors and sound
effects), done interviews, etc. If you find that you're having fun with the
process, you'll think of all kinds of clever things to do. And I hope you'll
tell me about them, too."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "That pretty well does it for the formal bit of this
talk. I think we've got 5-10 minutes available for questions or discussion,
and if we don't, Stoko will wave his big hook at me, so what else can I tell
you?"
Zubeneschamali giggles at the thought of a dramatized RP log.
Tokeli lawls at the thought.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "That episode's here, if you want to hear it:
https://community.pennmush.org/node/448"
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Er, http:// works too"
Nymeria says, "Next step, streaming sound integrated in PennMUSH. ;) I kind of
like that feature of SL, actually."
Temperance says, "We actually had a Shang player who created an IC radio show
that did live audiocasts for specific events. Gathered promo spots from
players, played music during the event - it was a wonderful way of integrating
sound into the game."
<Lecturer> Javelin chuckles. "For some kinds of RP themes, having an IC news
show or something similar that players listen to off-MUSH would be interesting
until someone streams it on-MUSH"
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Scooped by Temperance again. :)"
Nymeria nods, was thinking of music for events, for example.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Live audiocasting is a bit of a different beast, and
has some additional complexities. People interested in that might want to talk
to Walker, in fact, who did the In The Band live mush/music jam"
Temperance laughs and shakes her head. "Not me... the player. We've got some
wonderfully creatie players."
<Lecturer> Javelin is reminded of one thing. "If you decide you want to
podcast interviews and things, it's very helpful in many cases to have 2 sound
cards (I use an external usb second sound card)."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "It's not impossible to work with a single one, but
it's much more annoying."
collette says, "Why?"
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "The cheapest/easiest way to do those things is
usually with Skype."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "If you're talking into a microphone, and it's going
out over Skype, and coming back to you from Skype, your voice gets a bit
distorted. So does the voice of the other person, but you usually can't do
anything about that."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "If you want your voice to come through as cleanly as
possible, you want to record your voice direct from the mic, and only their
voice from skype."
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "That's easy with 2 sound cards."
collette ahs.
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Now, if you've doing a podcast with something like
co-hosts, where you want *both* of you to sound as clean as possible, there
are some trickier approaches possible, notably doing a "double ender", where
you each record your own mic, and someone stitches the two audiofiles together
into a single one at the end. But I'm trying to stick to "how to get started
with the easy stuff."""
<Lecturer> Javelin says, "Well, it looks like my time's up IRL, but anyone who
wants to talk about it more knows where to find me, and I hope to be *hearing*
you soon."
<Lecturer> Javelin goes down the few steps to the seating area.
Javelin comes down the few steps from the stage.
Javelin has arrived.
Tethys says, "You could also attempt to use a non-skype method like using a
locally hosted teamspeak or ventrillo server. Still not the most desirable,
but you can select your desired codec and bitrate and get the best quality you
can afford on your connection."
Stoko carefully walks up the narrow stairs to the stage.
Stoko has left.
<Lecturer> Stoko has arrived.
Tethys says, "If you have the technical knowhow anyways."
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "Javelin, thank you very much for your presentation."
Javelin nods to Tethys, finds Teamspeak's sound much worse, but YMMV, of
course. :)
Bancor claps politely
collette clapclapclap!
Êlvïrå claps :)
Nymeria claps, and ponders things. :)
.nails tosses hats in the air in celebratory fashion!
Brody cheers!
.nails has... so many hats...
Tethys claps.
collette says, "And you wear them all, too. :P"
Zubeneschamali throws nails into the air-- wait, no, that wouldn't be good. :O
Javelin waves.
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "ITBG will continue on MPUG, where nails will be your
host. Everyone, please connect to puggy.mushpark.com 9033, and type 'ITBG'."
Javelin has disconnected.
<Lecturer> Stoko says, "ITBG will continue in five minutes."
.nails says, "Let the invasion begin!"
<Lecturer> Stoko goes down the few steps to the seating area.
Stoko: Internationalization
nails says, "Okay, boys and girls and other forms and conglomerates. Up next
we have a presentation on Internationalization given by my esteemed
co-coordinator, Stoko. Stoko has translated PennMUSH into Croation, and is the
head wizard of InterMUSH, a multilingual MUSH which is planning big
contributions to the PennMUSH translation project. He'll talk about the issues
they have dealt with, and the benefits that internationalization brings to
MUSH as a whole."
nails says, "Stoko, take it away."
Stoko says, "Hello again. The following presentation was written in advance,
and is automated. However, anyone who has any questions can ask them at any
time during the presentation, or at the end of the presentation, when there'll
be time for Q&A."
Stoko says, "I'll have to apologize for two things. I apologize for the topic
of this presentation, because it probably won't be interesting to some, or
many, of the people here. If you are one of them, I won't be offended if you
idle until the next presentation. The presentation which will come after mine
is likely to be very good, so it'll be worth the wait. Also, I apologize for
my imperfect English. I know how tiring it can be to read text written by
someone who doesn't have perfect mastery of a language, especially if it's a
long text."
Stoko says, "I'll talk about the question of translating MU* servers to
languages other than English, and of running MU*s in languages other than
English. I'll talk mostly about PennMUSH, because it's the only kind of server
I have significant experience with. This presentation is meant to introduce
people to works in progress which are related to internationalization features
in PennMUSH, and to give ideas to developers of other types of servers for
adding internationalization to the codebases they are working on. I'm the one
who's holding this presentation mostly because I'm the head wizard of a place
called InterMUSH, which is planning many contributions to PennMUSH
internationalization."
Stoko says, "The credits for the contents of this presentation don't go only
to me, but also to the people who've worked in the PennMUSH development team
in the period from 2000 to this day (because they are the ones who've made the
first, and the most important contributions to PennMUSH internationalization),
to some staffers from InterMUSH (among which Luke has made the biggest
contributions by his influence over the course which InterMUSH'es staff took
in making contributions to PennMUSH internationalization, and by creating some
vital InterMUSH-specific server features through his work on the source code
which InterMUSH is using, without which InterMUSH probably wouldn't be able to
make some specific contributions to PennMUSH internationalization), to all
people who've written translations for PennMUSH Translation Project, and also
to all people who've helped these efforts by their advice or in other ways.
The thing, which this presentation is about, is something that, by my count,
around thirty people had worked on, or are still working on."
Stoko says, "In year 2000, PennMUSH development team started PennMUSH
Translation Project. The goal of the project is to provide translation files
to gods of PennMUSH servers who want to run their games in non-English
languages. The translation files, when applied, are supposed to replace all
PennMUSH server messages with their translations to the language of choice. If
the staffmembers of a MUSH where all room descriptions, messages sent by
global commands, news texts, etc. are written in a specific non-English
language install the translation files for that language, the server will
become more accessible to people who speak that specific language, but don't
speak English. Currently, translation files for sixteen languages can be
downloaded from PennMUSH Home Page. A few of them are almost completely up to
date (Dutch and Croatian), some of them were up to date several years ago, and
some have always been incomplete."
ihavenomouth has partially disconnected.
Stoko says, "The birth of this project was a big step forward in helping
people run PennMUSH servers in languages other than English. However, this
project has many problems, and most of them are solvable."
Stoko says, "First problem would be the lack of unicode support in PennMUSH.
Some languages have characters which can't be displayed without unicode
support. Obviously, for those languages translations either can't be done
perfectly, or can't be done at all. There won't be any problems with
translating PennMUSH to languages like German, French, Italian, or Spanish.
However, some characters will have to be substituted by similar characters
from ASCII in languages like Czech, Polish, and Croatian, and the translations
to those languages will thus be imperfect. Also, there are languages like
Serbian in which translations will be possible, but not in the original
alphabet (Serbs use both Cyrillic and Latin alphabet, but they use the
Cyrillic more often - however, if one uses Latin alphabet, same problems as
for Czech, Polish, and Croatian will occur in the Serbian translation). There
are also languages for which translations will be completely impossible
because they contain letters for which there are no perfectly corresponding
letters or groups of letters in the Latin alphabet, and because it's a very
uncommon practice to write them by using Latin letters (for instance, Hebrew,
Greek and Arabic)."
nails imagines Cyrillic alphabet soup. Yum!
Zubeneschamali says, "Tasty!"
Zubeneschamali would be very interested in seeing an asian-language (any of
them) MU*, though.
Stoko says, "I believe presence of Unicode would make such MUSHes possible."
Stoko says, "Unicode support is planned for future versions of PennMUSH, but
it's hard to say when we'll be able to see it in PennMUSH. The main problem is
that adding unicode to PennMUSH is a lot of work, and that the need to add it
is not particularly big."
William has arrived.
Sketch-the-fox has arrived.
Stoko says, "The second problem is that there are few people who still
regularly update PennMUSH translations. Of sixteen languages for which the
translations exist, only two can be said to be regularly updated. Those are
Dutch and Croatian. Regular updates of translations are important because new
server messages are often added in new versions of PennMUSH."
Stoko says, "InterMUSH, the social MUSH which I've mentioned earlier,
currently has active translators which are capable of translating things from
English to four different languages (German, Spanish, Dutch, and Croatian).
Translations to two of those (Dutch and Croatian) can be done by native
speakers. Four languages isn't a lot, but we intend to recruit more
translators. One of the tasks that I, as the head wizard of InterMUSH, hope
the translators will accomplish are regular updates of translations of
PennMUSH server messages for the PennMUSH Translation Project. Hopefully,
sooner or later, we'll have a staff which will regularly update server
messages' translations for more than ten different languages. That should
solve the problem of lack of people who regularly update translations for
PennMUSH Translation Project. Also, anyone who has a reasonable amount of
experience with PennMUSH, and who is fluent both in English and in a language
other than English, can contact Javelin and tell him that he's interested in
contributing to PennMUSH Translation Project."
Stoko says, "The third problem is that, as far as I know, only one MUSH
currently uses any translation files for PennMUSH. That MUSH is, again,
InterMUSH. The Mud Connector site lists more than one hundred eighty MUSHes,
but no MUSHes on which primary language is something other than English."
Givur has arrived.
ihavenomouth has always felt that was unfortunate.
Zubeneschamali says, "That's too bad, it seems like MUSHing would be a great
opportunity to practice another language."
Stoko nods, "Indeed. That's the way some people whose language is something
other than English practice their English."
Stoko says, "I'm probably optimistic rather than realistic, but hopefully,
when there are enough internationalization features, and when MU* community
learns of PennMUSH'es support for various languages, a significant percentage
of people who'll decide to run a MU* server in a language other than English
will pick PennMUSH primarily because of its internationalization features.
MU*s in languages other than English are very rare, but they do exist. That
means that there is some interest in MU*s in languages other than English.
InterMUSH is a multilingual MUSH where conversations in all languages are
welcome. Perhaps InterMUSH will, some day, become a place where many future
gods and staffmembers of MUSHes in languages other than English will start
their MUSHing career. They might get familiar with using PennMUSH and writing
MUSHcode there, and they might start liking PennMUSH. Next step they might
then take is to start running their own game in their own language, and, if
they don't speak English and therefore can't understand the helptexts or ask
for help elsewhere, they could get the initial help from the staff and the
players of InterMUSH who speak their language."
Stoko says, "The fourth problem are MUSHcode functions which, for their entire
range of possible arguments, return a big variety of different pieces of text
in English. Some of those functions are spellnum(<number>) which returns the
number in the brackets spelled in English, and ordinal(<number>), which is
same as spellnum() except that it returns an ordinal rather than cardinal
number. Most of the languages other than English, or perhaps even all of them,
use different rules for building the names of numbers, so simply translating
strings like 'one', 'two', 'ten', 'hundred', 'thousand', etc., and including
those into the translation files for different languages wouldn't be enough."
Zubeneschamali says, "Oh, man. I hadn't even thought of that. ;[ *thinks about
it*"
Stoko says, "InterMUSH intends to create softcoded systems for as many
languages as possible which will provide translations of outputs of MUSHcode
functions such as spellnum() and ordinal(), and distribute them over the Web.
Some preliminary steps in that direction have already been made. Perhaps
later, if it turns out a hardcoded approach would be better, either the
PennMUSH development team, or someone from InterMUSH, will probably write a
hardcoded translation system for those functions for the future official
PennMUSH releases."
Stoko says, "The fifth problem is incompleteness of the list of server
messages which are being translated. Around twenty server messages which
aren't even being offered for translation were found. There are probably more
such messages. Translators won't be able to translate those messages until
PennMUSH development team marks them for translation. That means the end users
will still see those messages in English, instead of seeing them in the
language of their choice."
nails tries to imagine what it would be like.
nails says, "I type something and get an error message in French. My eyes
cross."
Stoko snickers.
Stoko says, "Two things would contribute to making such server messages more
rare. A bigger number of people who occasionally actively search for messages
which weren't marked for translation and report them to PennMUSH development
team would help. As far as I know, I'm currently the only one who does that.
The other thing would be a bigger number of players on servers which use
translations, and who report the omissions to PennMUSH development team,
either directly or indirectly (through a staffmember of the MUSH they play on,
for instance). Unfortunately, there's only one PennMUSH server which uses
translations (InterMUSH), and it has an extremely small number of players.
That means that the chance that a player would report a message which hasn't
been offered for translation is very small. Also, the fact that translations
for most of the languages are incomplete makes the identification of server
messages which weren't offered for translation at all more complicated. So,
the problem of server messages which weren't offered for translation at all
will probably become smaller when there'll be several well-populated servers
which use the translations, because it's likely that the number of people who
report the omissions will be bigger. Also, it would help if there were more
active translators of PennMUSH server messages, because translators are, in my
opinion, the people who are most likely to actively search for and report the
strings which weren't offered for translation."
Disraeli has arrived.
William says, "We could use Babelfish...as a stop gap?"
Stoko says, "Unfortunately, there is no software which can translate better
than a human. Personally, I don't like the idea of using Babelfish."
Sketch-the-fox says, "Me either."
William says, "Me neither."
nails says, "I wonder how we'd go about setting up an advertising campaign to
encourage people to start alternate-language MU*s."
Stoko says, "Online translation tools often return nonsense."
William says, "I'm just thinking it's better than nothing."
Disraeli thinks there already are alternate language MUXs.
Stoko says, "I think that's an important question, nails."
Disraeli says, "that we dont know abotu as we we dont hunt for them. ;)"
nails says, "They work well enough for me, since I speak nonsense already."
Stoko snickers.
ihavenomouth says, "I'd think you could write an advertisement, then ask
someone to translate it into various languages and post it somewhere for you."
nails hosts a Spanish-language MUX.
Disraeli has heard of Norwegian and Swedish MUXes out there
nails says, "Find them and bring them to me."
nails err.
Disraeli salutes!
Stoko says, "I think that the currently most important problem is making the
intfrastructure for MUSHes in other languages."
Stoko says, "Advertising would, in my opinion, be best done after such
infrastructure has been made."
Sketch-the-fox nods.
Stoko says, "There are many reasons why you'd be in a worse position if you
started a MU* which isn't in English, than you'd be if you started a MU* in
English. I'll mention some of them during the presentation."
Stoko says, "The appropriate infrastructure would remove some of those
problems."
Diuturnal has arrived.
Stoko says, "The sixth problem, the non-existence of translations of commands,
either is or isn't a problem, depending whether one thinks the commands should
or shouldn't be translated. Currently, the main argument against command
translations is that the players which will get introduced to MUSHing on
non-English language servers will learn the translated commands, but won't
learn the original commands, which will make MUSHing on English-speaking
servers more difficult for them later on. If no command translations were
used, they'd learn the original commands in English right in the beginning.
The main argument that supports the idea of command translations would,
perhaps, be that the existence of translated commands would achieve a higher
degree of adaptation of PennMUSH to non-English languages. To be a bit more
precise, I think that the experience of a Russian who doesn't speak English,
but has to learn and use commands in English on a Russian-speaking MUSH, would
be similar to the experience of an American who doesn't speak Russian, but has
to learn and use Russian commands on an English-speaking MUSH."
Luke says, "It'd encourage him to learn Russian. :-)"
Stoko smirks.
Sketch-the-fox says, "But I can't -type- in russian..."
collette raises hand.
Stoko says, "Yes, collette?"
Minuet has arrived.
collette says, "Well, you are talking about say...keeping switch() as
switch(), instead of the foreign word for switch, right?"
Stoko says, "Right."
Stoko says, "We wouldn't translate things which are mainly used in softcode,
to ensure portability."
Stoko says, "If someone started using translated commands and functions in
softcode, the code wouldn't be portable to MUSHes which don't use those
translation features."
collette says, "On the one hand, being able to code with switch() (or the
foreign language equivalent) makes coding quite intuitive and easy to remember
what commands do what. But if you want to download someone's coded system, and
it uses english, then you are in trouble."
nails waves to the newcomers.
collette says, "You read my mind." :) *sits down*
Stoko says, "The MUSHes which use translations of commands and functions would
still have the English equivalents enabled."
Stoko nods and smiles.
Elvira has disconnected.
Stoko says, "InterMUSH is currently working on making a softcoded system which
will provide the translation of PennMUSH commands which are commonly used by
players. The system itself already works, but it won't be distributed until
helptexts for it have been written. Once the helptexts are made, the command
name translations for several languages will be available on InterMUSH'es
website. The intention is, as for translations of everything else, to make
translations for as many languages as possible. I'm the one who made the
selection of commands to be translated, and it's arguable whether the
selection was ideal. If necessary, the selection of translated commands will
be made differently in future versions of the system. Basically, our softcoded
system creates the translations of commands as @command/aliases. The only
problem about the system that I see is the inability of translating the
switches for commands. It's impossible to @command/alias a translation to a
specific switch of a command, and I don't think any way of translating the
switch itself is possible unless a hardcoded approach is taken. That's why I
haven't offered the commonly used @mail command for translation to
InterMUSH'es translators. I believe nearly all players use @mail with switches
more often than without them, so by translating @mail's command name, very
little would be accomplished; players would still have to type English text
almost every time they used that command. The first version of softcoded
command translations will probably still have that problem, but in case
command translations really are a good idea, the first version of command
translations will be a step forward nevertheless. However, @command/alias
which could alias a command with a specific switch to something would be
useful not only to the effort of creating translations of commands, but
probably for other purposes as well. I, or someone else, will suggest that
feature to PennMUSH development team. If the developers decide to add that
feature, it will be the solution of this problem, and there will be no
obstacle for future versions of command translations to have the switches
translated as well. But, since, as I've heard, making such a change to
@command/alias is a lot of work, it's possible that the modification of
@command/alias won't happen soon."
Sketch-the-fox says, "That was longer than most of the poses I've ever
seen..."
Doyle has arrived.
Stoko snickers, "I know. Sorry."
Wine has arrived.
Givur has disconnected.
Stoko says, "The seventh problem which will be mentioned is, in my opinion,
the one that will by far be the most difficult one to solve, due to the great
amount of planning and work required. It's probably not the most important
problem for the entire internationalization effort, but it's the most
important problem for the translation of the hardcoded PennMUSH server
messages to languages which wouldn't get anything from unicode support (for
other languages, the main problem would, in my opinion, be the non-existence
of unicode support). Also, there is no other problem about which so much could
be said, due to the complexity of its consequences, and also of its solution.
The problem in question arises from the fact that different languages have
different grammatical rules."
Stoko says, "We can classify PennMUSH server messages into two types. The
first type of messages is the one which looks the same every time it's sent to
the user, regardless of all conditions. Examples of such messages are 'Huh?
(Type "help" for help.)', 'Permission denied.', and 'Obvious Exits:'. The
other type is the one which has the same basic format every time, but
different contents in different situations. Examples of those messages are
'MAIL: You have sent your message to <player>', 'You say, "<text>"' and '<player>
pages: <text>'. In some languages, problems will sometimes occur in
translations of the first group of messages. But problems in translations will
more or less often occur, I believe, in nearly every language for the second
group of server messages."
Stoko says, "I will list some of the grammatical reasons for those problems. I
will describe those problems mostly by making references to Croatian
grammatical rules, because I'm not well familiar with grammatical rules of any
languages other than English and Croatian."
Stoko says, "One of the reasons is declension of nouns. Declension of nouns
are changes done to the form of a noun (including personal names), which
depend on the context in which the noun is used in the sentence. Nouns in
English can have only two forms - one form for singular, and one form for
plural - and plural of a noun is, in a great majority of cases, formed simply
by suffixing it with an 's'. However, there are languages in which each noun
has more than two possible forms. German, for instance, has four grammatical
cases for singular, and another four for plural. Croatian has seven
grammatical cases for singular, and seven for plural. Also, rules for
declension of a noun both in German and Croatian depend on its gender, and
both of those languages have three genders. Let's see how that affects server
messages from the second group which contain player names in their output."
Molikai says, "I knew there was a reason I preferred English..."
Stoko smirks.
Sketch-the-fox says, "English is pretty simple, all things considered. :p"
Wedge can only imagine how complicated this can get. Much less if you use
non-traditional genders. c_c
nails does!
Stoko says, "English seems like one of the best languages for writing
computer-generated messages, mainly because of its simplicity."
Bancor has disconnected.
Stoko says, "Message 'MAIL: You sent your message to Igor.' can't be literally
translated to Croatian. Name, or any other noun, remains unchanged only in the
first grammatical case, which is called nominative case, and which exists in
all languages. So, 'Igor' will remain 'Igor' in nominative case. However, this
message requires that 'Igor' is declensed into dative case, which is used when
the noun signifies direction of the action of the main verb of the sentence,
and this verb is called 'predicate'. Obviously, the predicate in this sentence
is 'sent', and noun 'Igor' indeed tells us where (to whom) the message has
been sent, so it really does have to be in dative case. The only thing
PennMUSH server is able to insert into both the original and the translated
sentence is the name of the player the message has been sent to, and that name
can only be in the nominative case. Dative of 'Igor' is 'Igoru'. One could
solve this problem by adding a 'u' right after the place where player's name
is supposed to be in the translated message. The problem will be solved for
name 'Igor' and some other names, but there are names whose dative case is
formed by addition of suffixes other than 'u'. I'm fairly sure that an
algorithm which would determine the correct form of Croatian dative for any
personal name (even the names which were made up by players), could be made,
but that algorithm would be pretty complex, and would require the sex of the
owner of that name as a part of its input."
nails says, "kind of like the art() function in MUX, which requires multiple
config directives in the conf file to function properly."
William has disconnected.
Sketch-the-fox says, "Wow, that's way cooler than penn's art(). :D THat's more
like it!"
Stoko says, "Hm... Actually, art() would have to be more complex than it is in
PennMUSH to work properly."
nails says, "One of the tricks in upgrading a MUX from older versions is
making sure an old conf file gets updated article rules added."
Wedge nodnods, can imagine. And also at what point you include things like if
someone is diong a hermaphrodite or something along those lines.
Stoko says, "As far as I know, it should be 'a user', not 'an user'. And
PennMUSH'es art returns 'an user'."
Stoko says, "If one does 'think art(user) user.', he gets 'an user'. Wrong."
Sketch-the-fox says, "Penn's just does it by vowels, I think. :p"
Stoko says, "Because the article, as far as I know, depends on the beginning
sound of the word, not on the beginning letter."
nails says, "So basically, even if you provide flexible tools, maintenance and
config of those tools is complex and time consuming."
Stoko nods.
Stoko says, "The system for determining the right form of dative in Croatian
would, IMO, be far more complex than the system that's being used for art()."
Bancor has connected.
nails nods.
Stoko says, "I believe it's obvious now how complex this problem is - perhaps
the only way to solve it is to write one long algorithm per every language
which has this kind of a problem, and to determine the contents of messages
sent to players by the server on the basis of players' SEX attribute. It's
best when coders can code a system for translators who have to know a language
but don't have to have any technical knowledge, and then let the translators
translate while they don't need to do any more work themselves. In the
solution I've just explained, coders would have to write unique code for each
language. However, if one doesn't mind changing structure of sentences a bit,
it's possible to reconstruct a sentence so that a player's name, which would
be in a grammatical case other than nominative (in this case, dative) if the
sentence was translated literally, really does end up being required to be in
nominative. To achieve that, one could translate the above message as 'MAIL:
Igor will receive your message.' This time, Igor is the performer of the
action in the sentence (he is the one who will receive the message), and is
thus expected to be in nominative, which means it's grammatically correct if
his name in this sentence remains 'Igor'. By using exactly this method, I've
avoided such problems in many different hardcoded PennMUSH messages when I was
translating PennMUSH to Croatian."
nails nods. That makes sense, too. "There's very little need to maintain
structural parity when you're translating. It's not poetry to receive mail.
;)"
Zubeneschamali is glad she's learning a language that barely even recognizes
genders, let alone utilizes them so heavily.
nails says, "Venuzian?"
Stoko nods and smirks to nails.
Sketch-the-fox says, "Japanese?"
Zubeneschamali says, "Sketch wins."
Wedge can't even pass high school level Spanish. You're way ahead of him.
nails was close.
Sketch-the-fox needs to hang out with Zuben, apparently.
nails says, "Venuzian just doesn't recognize other genders."
Stoko says, "Problems with declension also occur when object names are
inserted into server messages. Also, there are server messages which,
depending on the occasion, use different words, such as 'flag', 'power', etc.
in different contexts. The translators translate words like 'power' and
'flag', and then they get inserted into several different server messages,
which require those words in different grammatical cases. For that reason,
this insertion of words will produce grammatically incorrect results for some
languages."
Stoko says, "Much more could be said about grammatical problems relating to
the translation system. Hopefully, what has been said shows how complex this
problem is."
Caireen says, "Can I ask why worry? Why not take the approach that Igor is not
a person it is the name or unique label for a specific type of object."
Bancor waves and heads out, will have to get the logs later
Stoko says, "Personal names and objects declense in the same way."
Bancor goes home.
Bancor has left.
nails says, "Also, Igor called and he said he finds that remark offensive."
Stoko snickers.
Stoko says, "The eighth problem is the translation of PennMUSH helptexts. The
translation of those wouldn't be a big amount of work - it would be a
tremendously huge amount of work. PennMUSH helptexts have a total of nearly a
million characters. Also, new helptexts are added with each new version of
PennMUSH."
nails says, "Added and modified."
Stoko nods.
Stoko says, "Helptexts aren't particularly likely to ever get translated.
However, if PennMUSH translation effort takes that course, there are several
ways of making the job more feasible. In any case, it would be best if a
system, similar to the existing Web-based system for translating server
messages, was created to translate helptexts. Then, either a selection of the
most important helptexts could be made, or the translation of the bigger
portion of the helptexts, or perhaps even all of them, could be done by a team
of ten or more translators for every language. Obviously, it could be
difficult to find so many translators even for translations to one language."
Sketch-the-fox says, "It's hard to get them written in the -first place-. :p"
nails grins.
Stoko says, "Yeah, I imagined."
collette giggles.
Stoko says, "But... It's been done over a long period of time, by many people.
I doubt anyone would dedicate several years of his life, half an hour each
day, to translating them for one language."
nails says, "I think a more feasible project would be to start with
alternate-language tutorials for common tasks."
nails says, "Maybe build up a database of how-tos, and work from there."
Stoko nods.
Stoko says, "I could probably name more problems which PennMUSH Translation
Project has, but I have to admit I didn't have enough time to mention them all
while I was preparing my presentation."
Stoko says, "There are some other problems MUSHes which run in languages other
than English could have."
Stoko says, "One of the problems is the question of portability of softcode.
There's a lot of softcode available on the Web for download, but all, or
almost all, of it is in English. A staffer of a, say, Hungarian MUSH would
have a much harder time implementing that softcode than a staffer of a English
MUSH would. He would need to spend time on translating all text sent by the
softcode to Hungarian."
Molikai says, "all functions are based on the english language, also, and thus
are less intuitive for non-english users?"
Wine has disconnected.
Sketch-the-fox says, "All functions are based on computer-science terms, and
are thus less intuitive for the average player. Not a problem."
nails peers at Sketch.
Sketch-the-fox peers back. "I try to tutor softcoding on an RP MUSH."
Impster has arrived.
Stoko says, "InterMUSH intends to partially solve that problem by distributing
softcode over the Web which is translated to several different languages."
Stoko says, "There is also a problem of fragmentation of MU* community. MU*
players who don't speak English wouldn't communicate with English-speaking MU*
players, and they wouldn't go to their websites or read their blogs.
Generally, speakers of one language wouldn't have much contact with the
speakers of some other language, unless they speak their language."
collette has reconnected.
Stoko says, "InterMUSH hopes it'll make that problem smaller if it will
succeed in becoming a sort of crossroads for MUSH staffers and players of
MUSHes in languages other than English. Perhaps it will become a place where
MUSH players and staffers who don't speak English will be able to learn
softcode, to learn how to start their own server, and to be in some sort of
contact with the rest of the MU* community."
Stoko says, "That's all from me. Any comments or questions?"
Zubeneschamali says, "What's the address of InterMUSH? :D"
Nymeria has disconnected.
nails says, "You should post an ad for InterMUSH on our ad bboard :)"
Stoko says, "It's intermush.pennmush.org 4201. However, we, and especially I,
have been very lazy, so InterMUSH can be said to still be under construction."
Stoko says, "Thanks, nails, I will."
Stoko says, "Also, if you're interested in the website as well, it's at
http://intermush.pennmush.org"
nails says, "Are there any MU* clients that have useful amounts of
internationalization, or do most non-english MU*ers use the same clients
english-speakers do?"
Sketch-the-fox says, "I know that Atlantis, the client developed by Sparks of
the TinyMUX devteam, has full unicode support..."
Stoko says, "Sorry, nails, I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer that
question, but perhaps Sketch, and some other people, might answer it."
Sketch-the-fox says, "MUSHClient is also headed in that direction, and its
source is now available to view/patch (it's not, however, open-source)..."
nails nods. Unicode support doesn't really cover it, though. all the menu
items and dialog boxes are probably still in English.
Sketch-the-fox says, "Ah. Yes, probably."
nails says, "I'm just thinking of other obstacles to getting more non-english
speaking MU*ers into the mix."
nails says, "how can we convert them en-masse..."
Stoko says, "I haven't even thought about it. Yes, something might be done to
internationalize the clients, too."
Sketch-the-fox says, "nails: the largest obstacle is getting more than one.
Then they might -stay-."
nails rubs his hands together.
nails coughs. Anyway.
collette has partially disconnected.
Chouli goes home.
Chouli has left.
nails says, "The worst part is when I go on one of these games with another
primary language and I try to communicate with the natives by typing my
ENGLISH IN ALL CAPS."
Caireen says, "Lol"
nails <-- MU* tourist
Caireen says, "And you type slower?"
lain says, "nails, ever the ambassador."
nails says, "Any other questions guys?"
nails says, "If not, lets have a quick 2min snack and/or potty break and we'll
move on to the next presentation."
Stoko says, "Okay, my presentation is over, then. Thank you for your
attention."
nails says, "And everybody, a big round of applause for Stoko!"
Stoko sits on one of the seats in the audience.
Diuturnal applauds, quite loudly.
lain says, "Everybody?"
Guest2 applauds
Caireen says, "Thanks Stoko"
Zubeneschamali flings pieces of random vocabulary into the air in a
celebratory fashion!
nails cheers!
collette clapclapclapclap!
Watchmaker claps.
Zubeneschamali then scoots AFK to the heat run, to defrost self.
ihavenomouth claps, applauds, lauds, etc. :D
Sketch-the-fox wooo1
nails runs out of the room. brb
nails appears in the doorway, walking backwards slowly, dragging a huge couch.
Impster fling poo. . I like the zoo.. :p
nails gets some of the audience members to help him carry it and place it in
the center of the room. A little to the left, no back the other way. Just
right there.
nails plops down on the couch.
collette flops.
collette was tired of standing.
ihavenomouth continues to sit on her hard, uncomfy rock. Yep.
Watchmaker hops up on top of the couch, gargoyle-like.
Everybody claps, and then pushes herself out of her seat and goes out for a
smoke break.
Nails: Projects... for a better Tomorrow
nails says, "Okay, my fine feathered friends. The next and final presentation
will be brought to you by someone who needs no introduction, but does like
talking about himself in the third person. Oh, that would be me."
Sketch-the-fox laughs.
nails says, "After this one is done, we'll head back to M*U*S*H for a
reception and all around classy shin-dig."
Disraeli hees
nails says, "My presentation: Projects... for a better Tomorrow!!!"
Stoko applauds.
Emerson says, "!!!1111!!"
Impster wonders why Nails set on the couch if ya are going to present, "Get up
there in front."
Impster tries to steal the seat.
Diuturnal joins in with Impster. Couch is more comfy than the audience seat.
nails says, "Hi, I'm nails. I've been MUSHing since the fall of 94, I got my
first wizbit in 95, learned what to do with it in 96, and have been messing
around with games for a good long time. I was one of the earliest staff
members on OGR (Online Gaming Resources), having been suckered into being
their codewiz after helping to fix some dice code, and I was staff there for
~5 years. I've been hosting games for about 6 years in some form or another,
and have seen hundreds of games come and go in that time. I've sat on the
staff channels of both successful games and horrible failures, and I have seen
things. I've seen them with my eyes."
Sketch-the-fox raves in a corner. "Y'dunno the places I been, the things I
seen!"
ihavenomouth says, "You've seen them, you can't UNsee them."
Luke says, "They're often in disguise."
nails says, "Before I talk about the projects on my list, I want to point out
that there are several common underlying themes in all of them. We're talking
today about innovation, and what I'm getting at is that innovation isn't just
the domain of technological advances. There are all forms of new ways to
approach things, and at the very heart of it, MUSH is about people."
nails says, "Amongst the things I've come across are lots of naysayers and
pessimists, a lot of people espousing this problem or that problem. There are
a lot of derogatory myths that have perpetuated over the years that I think
really hurt the community, and I think it behooves everyone to dispell them
where and when they can."
nails says, "Where I'm focused, and where I see a whole bunch of room for
growth and development is in the community and the culture of MUSH, how people
go about playing, staffing, building, recruiting, advertising, etc et al. This
kind of change requires a lot of buy-in from a a lot of people, though."
nails says, "Okay, I'm a hippy cult leader blah blah blah."
Emerson breaks out the Kool-Aid.
Clotho claps and is a nails minion!
nails says, "But this is part of the mindset that underlines my approach to
projects, so it's worth stating."
Sketch-the-fox nods to nails. Peace and love!
nails says, "The other disclaimer is that many if not all of these projects
are either in their infancy or dormant. They're all in need of help to get
them started or get them rolling again. We'll be taking names and numbers at
the end. And yes, the doors are currently sealed from the outside."
nails says, "Project #1: Museon!"
nails says, "Museon is a project that dates back several years now. The idea
is to build up a modular softcode framework similar to previous efforts (MIAM,
SGP), but with a more open and structured development model. Instead of just
writing code and releasing it, there would be community involvement at every
level: Design, documentation, installation support and education resources.
Because the code would be handled by a open project instead of a person or a
specific group of individuals, it could have longevity beyond the involvement
of the initial author."
collette giggles.
Impster volunteers Collette to help with everything.
Sketch-the-fox says, "If I volunteer, don't take me seriously, I -beg- of
everyone."
Luke nods seriously.
nails says, "This is something I came up with to solve a specific problem: I
had all these new players starting new games, and all of them seemed to need a
dedicated coder to write essentially the same code for each game. Coders may
be a dime a dozen, but in practice this doesn't work out. The ones that are
available often aren't up to such a big task, the ones that are have already
been booked. A 1:1 ration of coders to games is not a feasible model. Museon
looks to solve this."
Emerson raises a hoof to make a comment.
nails says, "Three game admins, non coders, each need faction code. The
process under Museon is that they'd form a group amongst themselves (and
possibly others), and work out a design for one system that would suit the
needs of all their games. This would be made available to coders who would
review, suggest changes, and when everybody was happy, would work on the
project. The game admins would provide documentation, people would test it
out, and then the finished project would be made available to the public, not
just the original group."
nails says, "Mr. Emerson in 3D. Your comment?"
Javelin has connected.
nails notes also that a very old and rough draft rant of his on the subject
can be found at http://museon.org/
Sketch-the-fox raises a hand.
Diuturnal raises a hand.
nails says, "I fear the size of Emerson's comment."
Emerson says, "What I've noticed from coding my own projects, as well as
reviewing other code.. is that code, whether awesome or fairly poor, tends to
last for a fairly long time, often past the point where their original coder
is long gone from the host MUSH. The problem is that alot of this code is
written in.. 'dirty hack' format, and hardly maintainable. In addition to
writing and documenting code, we need to write -understandable- and -flexible-
code, that can be understood by newer coders, and more importantly, maintained
by them."
Diuturnal hearhears!
nails says, "That is also part of the Museon charter. Best practices, naming
conventions, etc are to be sorted out and documented, and to be applied to all
code projects. One of the facets is that every bit of code written under the
Museon project would be reviewed by another coder before getting stamped with
approval."
Sketch-the-fox says, "Neato. I've noticed a potential problem that most people
want their +who, +where, etc, to be essentially the exact same thing, but look
different. So won't people end up recoding it anyhow?"
nails says, "Museon started with a bang, back in the day. I had an idea, I
pitched it to some people, 2 days later we were up and running and advertised
and had coders on board hashing out those very issues. Vadiv was there, and he
was evangelizing the need for skinnable systems to avoid the need for
recoding."
Luke says, "Best practices would be to separate presentation from content, I
should think, Sketch."
Disraeli says, "dirty hack, oh yes."
Sketch-the-fox says, "I see I see."
Emerson does that with his other projects, "It tends to work very well, except
when you have to process large volumes of data."
nails says, "The basic idea of Museon can be summed up very simply: Software
engineering applied to MUSHcode."
Pain has arrived.
nails says, "The ideas aren't new. They just aren't often applied to MUSHcode
projects."
Caireen chuckles a little.
Disraeli did a course on software engineering. :p
Luke says, "The interesting thing, to me, is that the result will be open."
nails says, "All of the common complaints about existing 'available' softcode
are to be addressed. Documentation, portability (often debated, won't go into
that here), and installation. Furthermore, the more people that use the code,
the larger the group of people there are to help answer questions about how
use and modify it."
nails says, "Not every game is going to all have the same exact code. There
doesn't need to be only one +who, or one faction system."
collette assumes you could offer a few different kinds with museon.
nails says, "Museon doesn't put that kind of limit on code. It just talks
about how it should be designed, developed and maintained."
Emerson raises another hoof.
nails says, "go for it."
nails notes that he was going to gloss over this project, but got requests not
to. :)
nails says, "So I do have some other topics I'd like to talk about after
this."
Clotho pins a star to nails. :)
Luke says, "So, Museon: Sourceforge for MUSHes."
collette says, "Now he's the sherriff."
nails says, "That, or google code. svn seems to be the 'hep' thing with the
kids these days."
Luke says, "You make him the sheriff, somebody will shoot him. It's a rule."
Sketch-the-fox says, "Uh, nobody has -ever- said 'hep'."
Luke says, "Two people have, so far."
Clotho says, "I shot the deputy, but I didn't shoot the sheriff."
nails says, "Emerson is going to drop another bomb on us."
Caireen says, "svn?"
collette didn't understand nails either.
Sketch-the-fox says, "Subversion. a widely-used source control system."
Luke says, "svn is the short name for... for what Sketch said."
Clotho is waiting for Emerson to wri